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Comment by Alice on April 11, 2011 at 9:58pm We are victims to the machinery of government / society / institutions / our mother culture
We feel oppressed / used / prisoners born into this jail
Autonomy is of value
Protection from bodily harm is of value
Why should you pay for another persons needs – who is not even known to you?
Believe self-sacrifice is good is a trick and evil of religion and theology.
Starving people you don’t know are not your problem. It’s not your moral responsibility to feed them.
Other species are not important to protect.
You say that you don’t want to be forced to pay for others.
The way I see it – you are in the system – the system pays you – you don’t earn the amount of money they say you will get – they only give it too you on condition that you pay the tax – they are all the system – it’s not the hospital you work for is different and outside of this economy.
The economy you are in is a make products – sell products – buy products system. You are right in it when you go to work every day for money – you provide a product / service – you get money that allows you to buy products and services.
The American constitution is indeed a great idea – although altruistic in nature – due to it’s expectation that we can all live up to these high ideals. We can’t. Everyone breaks the law all the time.
You say that you are selfish and we all are – I agree we develop strategies that support ourselves.
You say that you don’t want to support others in the system who you don’t know and don’t care about including both humans and other species of animal.
Can I ask – if your father, mother, brother, sister, cousin, or other relative had a need – would or are you be prepared to help them?
I wonder if your individualism isn’t so individual when it comes to family or close friends or partners.
Perhaps there is another economy in your life not about products and money – but about support – you support some people in your lives, not because you get money or products for doing so, but because you might love or care for them. And also because selfishly you know that they have given you support in the past – they have protected you, fed you, or otherwise met your basic needs.
If this were the case – then perhaps you might agree that you would prefer a system that involved you being able to work in a small group of extended family and close friends – where you all cared for each other – for protection and for better access to finding food to share.
Or perhaps you believe that this is not needed and in fact you can go to work in the system, get your money and keep it for yourself – in order to pay for your needs to be met – for food, shelter, medicine, love?
Comment by MCT on February 1, 2011 at 7:38pm RVS,
How can individual rights limit the freedom of individuals? You mean their not free to have other people's money? That's not their right. Not free to have the means of survival provided for them by others? Socialism, in any form, is first and foremost an immoral attack on the individual.
Comment by MCT on February 1, 2011 at 7:34pm
Comment by Rob van Senten on February 1, 2011 at 10:27am Michael,
Some forms of collectivism are a necessity in my opinion, we do need roads, barriers against the water (I'm Dutch) and so on. We attempt to collectively solve perceived problems that are created within our society for our own benefit and those of others. I would think that the cost of solving problems collectively is measured in how much the freedoms of the individual are limited.
To me, the outcome of collectivism is what determines whether it is good or bad. If the sacrifice of individual liberty is too great I would consider a collective obligation to be bad and vice versa.
If we empower people, by valuing individual rights, to earn and keep their own shit, standard of living would go up and the ignorant and lazy would stop multiplying as much.
That is a possibility. However the children of the ignorant and lazy do not hold responsibility for the mistakes of their parents. They do however are presented with the consequences of their upbringing and might need additional help to function in society. A potential risk of not creating a safety net for these people is that they are left with limited choices to function in society and as such, this may lead to an increase in criminal behavior.
Furthermore, you could argue that if there are no safety nets (wealth distribution etc.) in place then it might be beneficial to parents that are not in a privileged position in society to actually bear more children. Their children might provide them with a future income after all.
Difficult subject, I would like to think that there are many things that I as an individual cannot accomplish alone for which I need the assistance of my fellow man. The individual liberties that I sacrifice to the "greater good" are to be watched and measured carefully. However, socialism and/or collectivism are not bad in essence, only in practice when the balance between what is gained for society and lost by the individual is lost.
Comment by Glen Rosenberg on February 1, 2011 at 9:47am Socialism, capitalism and libertarianism have meritorious attributes. Likewise deficiencies. Idealogues of any school are off base. I would like to see hybrid government.
Comment by Gary Renegar on February 1, 2011 at 8:44am
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