"I have been called a sexist by feminists. It's a smear, because I have strong attitudes about sexism, which I detest. I have a wife who went to work in 1962 so that I could stay home and try to be a writer, and who earned less than she would have in the same position had she been a man. That made it that much harder to survive the lean years of my writing career. I have two daughters I want treated fairly. If there's a job requiring heavy muscular effort, men are likely to do better. But most jobs today are intellectual or not heavily physical; women are as qualified for these as men and should be given the same chance and pay as men.

It became apparent that to some militant feminists, sexual interest is by definition sexist. I am a man, and I love the look and feel of women, but that is not sexism. Sexism is when a woman doing the same job as a man earns only two thirds as much, simply because of her gender. Sexism is when there are male and female workers on a job, but only the females get razzed. Sexism is when the teacher calls on boys rather than girls in class, because boys are supposedly superior. I think if the feminists got their definitions straight, they'd have a better chance of doing something about the problem."

--Piers Anthony, 1993

Why do feminists attack and bully any person they see as not feminist enough? Why do they confuse sexuality with sexism? Why do they appear to believe that it is 'us versus them'?

Take the ridiculous situation coined "elevatorgate" - a man made a pass on a woman, was rejected, and the two courteously and amicably parted. But hours later the woman takes offense saying that the situation was sexist. 

This whole extremist feminism thing starts to taste like the female only "anti-sex league" from 1984. Even if the more extreme feminists aren't vowing celibacy they are truly removing themselves from the gene pool - no man would want their abuse. Oh right, as I heard shouted by activists yesterday - females can perpetuate their genes via artificial insemination. We men have no uses in society and will rightly go extinct. 

I guess the crazy is here to stay.

Views: 214

Tags: feminism, sexism, sexuality

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Comment by Peter Martin Page on December 2, 2013 at 5:24am

Good blog title. Guilt over our sexuality is one of the worst remnants of religious baggage. It is so ingrained in our culture I don't feel I have any idea what a natural approach to sexuality would be like. One of the greatest advantages of Atheism must be our freedom to enjoy being human without feeling guilty for being so. It is going to be a challenge for a traumatized culture and its individuals to find what that nature would be without the negative embellishments religion has infused it with.

Comment by Čenek Sekavec on November 4, 2013 at 9:06pm

A woman advocates the complete elimination of the male gender - this is apparently NOT sexist.

A group of women screams rape inches from random male, and my own, face - this is apparently NOT sexist.

A group of women publicly calls all men "carnivorous and necrophiliacs" - this is apparently NOT sexist.

Women laughing at a man because of his genital mutilation - this is apparently NOT sexist.

A man questions perceived feminist misandry - that man is a sexist!

A man says he feels a bit offended being attacked when he is innocent - that man is a sexist!

A man (piers anthony) offers his opinion on feminism - that man is a sexist!

A man is a man - the man is a sexist!

And it isn't just men. These women speak out about the crazy and they are suffering attacks from women because of their opinion.

Kara Oh on 3 ways to emasculate a man

Who Stole Feminism? by Christina Sommers

Karen Straughan on Feminism and the Disposable Male

Jenna Marbles on Feminist Hipocracy

Terri Trespicio on Feminism Ruined My Dating Life

Comment by Luara on November 4, 2013 at 2:50pm

I already described the negative experiences women have at atheist conferences … men act like predatory males in rut, even in that enlightened group. Many of them are not enlightened enough to act like gentlemen and they will not until they are made aware of the disgusting experience it is for women.

Disgusting isn't quite the word - more like threatening and wearisome.
Quite often women are trying to be nice. At an atheist conference, they would be in a situation where in theory, people are getting together to be friendly.  It's a social thing. 

And when a male acts intrusive - for example, touching when it's not appropriate - it's often difficult for women to say "Stop that" or "Get your hands off me", because they have to stop being nice. 

It's made a lot worse if someone shames the woman for telling a guy to not stand too close, etc. 

It's also a lot worse if the intrusive man has power over the woman.
I also relate to the meat-market comment that Rebecca Watson made.  Women generally want to get to know guys as people. Sexual feelings come out of the personal interaction. 

When guys ignore that women are mostly like that, when they solicit sex from a woman without a personal interaction, it tells the woman that she's being treated like an object, not a person.  As well as being threatening, because of the threat of rape. 

Comment by Luara on November 4, 2013 at 2:07pm

Luara I understand how this is a sensitive topic to many so I won't take your accusation of sexism seriously. 

I didn't accuse you of sexism. I told you that saying negative things about feminist women in general, is logically equivalent to sexism.
"Feminists are bad" is logically equivalent to "The only good women are non-feminist women".
So if you are saying that feminists are bad, YES you are being sexist. 

You bring up things like, a woman you didn't know called you a rapist.  So what?  Maybe she had been raped and she was angry about it, and lashing out at a male who was nearby.  She's a human being too, not perfect at dealing with horrible things.  Trying to turn that into an accusation against feminists in general, is just prejudice. 

But no one seems to be talking about the root - a person felt uncomfortable and blamed their discomfort on the other person. Skepchick herself admitted that the encounter in the elevator was totally innocuous - it was not the guy's fault. But she still felt that it was right to tell off the other person.

I already told you exactly why she was right to say what she did.  I went to a lot of trouble to explain it to you carefully, but you don't seem to have heard me. 

This has nothing to do with rape. Any time I, A Man, bring up feminism the feminist always brings up rape.

It has LOTS to do with rape. And I explained that to you already, carefully and at length. If you can't hear it, you can't - but it's not because of anything I didn't say. 

Comment by Peter Martin Page on November 4, 2013 at 6:51am

When an Atheist stops believing it doesn't end all the trauma. Belligerent and chauvinistic ideologies that have existed for thousands of years have learned just about every possible way to manipulate us. We leave these belief systems with many scars and a lot of pain. We will have to do a lot of healing before we can enjoy being human without guilt and lashing out at each other.

Comment by Steph S. on November 3, 2013 at 10:33pm

I have read all the responses here and appreciate the insight from Joan and Luara. Thanks for taking the time to tell your stories. I agree it is a human thing.

Comment by Joan Denoo on November 3, 2013 at 9:57pm

Čenek, you are quite correct: “This isn't a female thing. This is a human thing.”

1) Threats, verbally, physically, emotionally have no place in modern discourse and women and men should state their opinions in public without violent reprisals. Yes, we all agree with this statement, I hope.

My experience has been that when I describe what happened to me, it was not rape, I am told in these exact words, “I know what you say is true but we don’t talk about it!” In my case it was family violence. I was an embarrassment to family and a nuisance to friends. To police I was just another incident report that needed writing. Silence didn’t protect my mother or grandmothers or aunts or cousins, or my children or me. It was only after I started screaming and setting down protective barriers that any of us found safety.

It is just as true for boys and men. Women abuse their husbands and some men can’t speak up because of embarrassment and pride. When I worked at a boys ranch, an abusive mother beat on her kids and husband, until the court took the children away from her. She couldn’t beat them any more and she shot her husband, in the presence of her children on a home visit. We couldn’t help her, she was “right”. We could and did help her children and husband. Father eventually left his wife, reclaimed his children and they used the communication, problem solving, conflict resolution skills we trained them to do.

2) In my opinion, Skepchick (Rebecca Watson) discussed her experience in the elevator with her fellow conference attendees and I agree that was an appropriate thing to do. What good would it have done if she talked to anyone else? I already described the negative experiences women have at atheist conferences … men act like predatory males in rut, even in that enlightened group. Many of them are not enlightened enough to act like gentlemen and they will not until they are made aware of the disgusting experience it is for women. Nurses, secretaries, wait-staff, and working women get chased around the chairs and tables too frequently. It is ridiculous! Any civilized man should know not to behave that way. Women predate on men as well and that is just as disgusting. My son and son-in-law tell stories of being touched inappropriately when they work on office computer networks. They feel disgust, too. Not embarrassed, just disgust. They refuse jobs where they know there are gropers on staffs. Women often don't have the emotional strength or economic power to make such decisions. 

3) For me it has nothing to do with rape, it has to do with domination/oppression, power/powerlessness, and exploitation/helpless. Why do so many women die at the hands of their husbands? Why are so many little boys and girls whipped into submission before they have a chance to develop a reasonable defense? It isn’t about rape; it is about domination, power, and exploitation. Some use people without concern for what their use costs the assaulted one. Women are as guilty of that as men, although not in the numbers. When women do kill their husbands or children, it is usually effective … they use lethal weapons. In the case of women, it is very often drowning a smaller sized person. Size differential makes a difference.

4) Women take on the issue of rape, violence and aggression because men aggress against women. Even wives experience rape from their husbands. I suppose there are men who have been raped by women and I only know of one case. When I lived near Washington, D.C. a reporter discounted and trivialized a woman’s story of being raped in his story. A group of women kidnapped him, tied him up and gang raped him. He was humiliated, felt helpless and assaulted. Oh, I know, some men would say, “Lay back and enjoy it!” but a rape is assault whether male or female. Emotions of being out of control are painful.

I’m glad you brought up the government stats on “Number of Rape, Physical Assault, and Stalking Victimizations”.

Clearly women report more rapes than men. Women tend to underreport rape, men tend to not report rape, by male or female.

Numbers on physical assault against women reveal 44.2 per 1,000 persons and for men 31.5 per 1,000 persons. There is no indication whether the assaults were by men or women. I would like to know the rate of men assaulting and women assaulting. We know that many men get their pleasures from fighting. Top man on the block plays into the data, unless it has been sorted out of the study.

As to stalking, we know that both men and women stalk, and the rate of victimization per 1,000 persons may be correct. Women being stalked = 5.0 per 1,000 persons; men being stalked = 1.8 per 1,000 persons.

We also can remember the female astronaut who stalked another female astronaut.

LISA NOWAK—MISSION "OUT OF CONTROL" - Military Corruption

https://www.google.com/search?q=female+astronaut+who+stalked+anothe...

Many of your fellow Atheist Nexus men have reported assaults and inappropriate behaviors by women against them. I have no reason to doubt any of them and agree women do such dastardly things.

I am not condoning women’s disgusting behaviors. I am saying, I will not remain silent in the face of ridicule, trivialization, discounting, down-putting, demonizing women for the behaviors of a few demented females. I will not remain silent in the face of the same treatment to men because of a lot of poorly socialized males. You and I have the right, and I would say, the responsibility to speak out against stereotyping.

This isn't a female thing. This is a human thing.

 

 

Comment by Čenek Sekavec on November 3, 2013 at 6:30pm

Luara I understand how this is a sensitive topic to many so I won't take your accusation of sexism seriously. 

I'd really like to hear a feminist opine on the four points I expressed in last comment below. 

Threats to anyone, in any setting are wrong. People should be able to air opinions in public without violent reprisal. We all agree on this.

But no one seems to be talking about the root - a person felt uncomfortable and blamed their discomfort on the other person. Skepchick herself admitted that the encounter in the elevator was totally innocuous - it was not the guy's fault. But she still felt that it was right to tell off the other person. This isn't about gender - if the other person in the elevator had been a woman and skepchick had said the other person needed to change their behavior to accommodate her own mental state... see how this sounds?

This has nothing to do with rape. Any time I, A Man, bring up feminism the feminist always brings up rape. Rape is horrible. I know because I've experienced it. Now can we PLEASE talk about something that actually has to do with what I was talking about.

This is the root of my objection with feminism: when feminism takes an issue that is a human issue and turns it into a feminist issue - this is wrong. It excludes and marginalizes men. Let's talk about violence...

This is the government's own study on this. I think because the study was titled as a "study of violence against women" they ignored the violence against men that they found.

Here is a chart I copied from the study: http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/3904/edv7.png

Men are recieving violence from women but aren't as likely to report it to police. Furthermore, violence against men is increasing because of this feminist hate. And inappropriate sexual comments and actions come from women too. I should know. 

This isn't a female thing. This is a human thing.

Comment by Luara on November 3, 2013 at 7:44am

Take the ridiculous situation coined "elevatorgate" - a man made a pass on a woman, was rejected, and the two courteously and amicably parted. But hours later the woman takes offense saying that the situation was sexist.

That's a very distorted picture of what happened.

What actually happened was that Rebecca Watson was at a convention, and talking in the hotel bar with some people from the convention.  It got late, and she left to go to bed. 

A guy, who she didn't know and she hadn't been talking to in the bar, followed her into the elevator and in the elevator, he asked her to come to his room for some coffee. 

She felt threatened.  

I don't know whether I would have felt threatened if it was me, or not.  That might have depended on the nuances of the situation - was it in a big city, how close was the guy standing to me, did he lean in on me when he was talking to me, what was the expression on his face. But in a small space where I was trapped, late at night when not many people were around, I would likely have felt threatened too. 

The next day at the convention, she talked about this at the convention and said "Guys, don't do this". 

That's all. 

And this caused an absolute storm of harassment of Rebecca Watson, guys pillorying her, rape threats, obscene drawings sent to her.  And THAT is sexism - that she couldn't say what she did without provoking "Elevatorgate".  She was trying to give some education to the guys at the conference, and she was giving them the credit for not being too sexist to be able to hear what she was saying.  She was assuming that "we are a community here" so she was talking to people who might hear, as a person, how she felt.  She was complimenting them by having this faith, but a lot of males reacted as if it were an insult. 

Guys have a social role of being the ones to approach women.  They have to do this in spite of the fear of rejection. So, many guys identified with the guy in the elevator.  They reacted defensively, pilloried Rebecca Watson for supposedly attacking them.  Some reacted offensively, like "ha-ha, I'll express sexual interest any way I want to, here's an obscene drawing that hopefully will REALLY offend you". 

It was a slightly subtle point, to be sure.  A guy who didn't have bad intentions, who hadn't been able to approach her when she was at the conference, might have thought - "Here is my chance to get to know her - a precious minute alone with her, and I'd better act quickly, so I'll ask her to my room". 

But, you can't just ask a woman who's never met you, to go someplace alone with you, where you would have the privacy to rape her if you wanted to.  If you have no bad intentions, you can't expect that she will magically know that.  You have to make friends with her a little bit first.  If he'd started chatting with her in the elevator - if he'd said "I enjoyed your talk", and if she was friendly, asked her if she wanted to go to some public place to talk further, and if she said no, asked if they could get together the next day in a public place - that would have been much less likely to make a woman feel threatened. 

Women get "asked for sex" all the time if they're even vaguely attractive.  That's a lot of what sexual harassment is, and no, it's not neutral.  I used to live in Pasadena, and I went to a writing workshop in Los Angeles.  I rode my bike once - but riding back, I had to bicycle back about 10 miles through empty streets in rough neighborhoods.  A hispanic guy came up to me when I was stopped, waiting to cross a road.  He hissed in my ear, something about "having six".  Later I realized he was asking me to have sex. 

That was harassment.  But, a guy might object, he was just asking, what's wrong with that?  How about guys on the street that so often yell sexual comments at you?  They're just talking, what's wrong with them noticing your body and expressing their sexual interest?  How about guys who follow you in empty open spaces when you're alone?  Maybe they're just expressing their sexual interest, and what's wrong with that? 

The problem is, it occurs in the context of the danger of sexual assault that women live with, from the  age of 16 or so.  Women learn to be wary in lonely places like parking garages or empty open natural areas, if there aren't other people around. I would have been on guard in the elevator at night with a guy in there with me.  And him expressing sexual interest in such a blunt way would touch on that wariness.  It might make me more afraid. 

The threat of rape isn't just in women's heads.  That fear is something we have to accommodate to in various ways - by not going places alone, by not going places late at night, by being extremely wary if we do.

I used to go camping in a SUV by myself.  And often I would overhear groups of men discussing whether to rape me.  They would laugh, describing how I would go running down the mountain screaming, afterwards.  I got a big dog, then I overheard groups of men discussing whether the dog would prevent them from attacking me.  It wasn't rare to hear this, either.  Clearly, in many male groups it's socially acceptable to rape a woman, or at least to discuss doing it. 

The other problem is that those "I wanna fuck you" messages are SO pervasive.  Like many times a day.  They happen all the time.  Men push their sexual interest into your attention; you need to be wary because of the threat of rape; and you might have been thinking about something else, but coping with a guy's sexual interest overrides your other thoughts.  It is very intrusive and it makes it impossible to think about whatever you need to think about.  You can't just ignore it, because of the threat of rape. 

And if a man expresses interest in this blunt way, in a situation where the woman has reason to be afraid, it's a bad sign about him.  It says that he doesn't have any sensitivity to how she would feel.  That is another reason why it's threatening - it communicates sexual interest from a man who's just given you reason NOT to be interested in him, by the way in which he communicated his sexual interest.  

I hope this explains where women are coming from.  And, talking about feminists being bad in a general way, is the same as saying "the only good women are nonfeminist women".  That sure sounds like sexism.

Comment by Čenek Sekavec on November 3, 2013 at 3:04am

Joan, thanks for taking the time for the lengthy responses. I don't know you as well as I'd like to but you do not strike me as the type of person I was talking about in the post. The vehemence of your response really took me by surprise. Like you I also have experienced a lot of gender malignment. My ex threatened me (yes, with rape) and made my life extremely difficult ruining every event for months. As you said - both genders misbehave. My experience is NOT a rarity according to the same government studies that feminists like skepchick cite. So why is feminism so focused only on the men? Feminist ideals are humanist ideals - why do we need feminism at all?

But feminism has produced some very extremist and male-offensive attitudes. I'm specifically referring to the large influence of Sheila Jeffreys. Her books blatantly state anti-social philosophies and encourage people to hate their fellow humans on the basis of gender - if a man wrote that book he'd be called sexist.

Furthermore, these anti-social attitudes really can harm individual feminists - it makes them more difficult to relate to and for them to relate to others. I could link you to blogs of feminists who lament that feminism has made it impossible to find a life companion. 

Also, a person can't be responsible for another persons feelings. People feel all kinds of things all the time. I dislike elevators because of the closed space and HATE small talk when I'm so uncomfortable but this is not the fault of the person next to me. Once I was asked out in a bar by someone I was not attracted to but since I was surrounded by women who were all eyeing me with expectation I accepted. The nice girl who made a pass at me was not responsible for my emotional state. There are videos where women lament feeling a likewise pressure - but they blame the men! 

Finally, this subject is difficult for me to express because I feel that our culture doesn't like men to speak out about this feminist ostracism against us. Because apparently we are the oppressors so we don't get to have a say. Further, I don't want to speak out because men are seen as whining prissy by both genders despite the fact that there might be a genuine and relevant issue. I found it offensive when those feminist activists shouted in my face "rapist."  If it isn't right for a man to yell it at a woman, it certainly isn't right for a woman to yell it at a man. It is the feminists who are the aggressors.

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