Email: So, what if you're wrong about Hell, Alleee? (long response; get ready)

On Apr 7, 2009 7:27am, helen/zhebee wrote:
>
>
> Hello again
>
> I hope for your sake that you are right about hell
> but what if you are not right ......then what?
>
> Helen


If I am "not right" about hell?

Well, there are literally billions of possibilities that are very different or slightly different than my idea that there is no place where God designated for people who Don't Love Him to be tortured.

However, if it comes to that One Remotest of Possibilities, I would have to conclude that there is a God, and He is the worst possible being to have ever existed. I would have to conclude that some people worship this horrible monster, knowing that It made a rule that when people don't love It, that they would be forced to roil in non-consuming flames for eternity, which is just as far from 100,000 billion years as one year is.

I'd have a couple choices as a moral human being.

1. Drop to my knees and worship this monster, because of the threat.
2. Fight, no matter how useless that fight would be.

Those who drop to their knees and worship would be justified, since it's not really a moral choice anyway. If someone has a loaded gun pulled on you, whatever you do is not your fault anymore. It's self-defense, pure and simple. But it's the cruelest thing any being could do, save for, I guess, threatening to torture one's children forever.

Those who fight are those who have nothing left to lose against such a horrible, alien being. But hey, at least they retained their dignity at the last moment before the eternal torture commences. Those in heaven get to live for eternity thinking that the ones being tortured forever, perhaps family members, people they loved more than their own lives, "deserved it."

I cannot help but wonder what kind of terrible "heaven" it would be, knowing one was chosen by this bloodthirsty monster, and knowing that one's beloveds are screaming in pain. Some I've talked to told me they would be allowed to watch while people like me were screaming and crying for water, or relief from their wounds. What kind of person thinks this, Helen. Would he be a good christian, in your judgment? Would he deserve the kind of heaven you imagine?

Thing is, Helen, most people deny God's omnipotence at this point and pretend that He has no power to stop this horror from happening; that somehow it's Not His Fault, His Hands are Tied. What kind of God is that? He made Hell, according to the bible, and of course, being God who created EVERYTHING, created the rule (terrible threat) that everyone who does not love him must go there. So, really, if He denies any responsibility, he's more immoral than I thought before.

Some try to mitigate this Horror by pretending that Hell is "only" eternal separation from God. I ask, is this okay? "no!" I ask, "is it tolerable?" "NO!" I ask, "Is it the worst thing to ever happen to someone?" They say "YES!"

So, then, how is this not torture? It's worse than what the Vietkong did to people, right? Of course right, because it's the worse punishment imaginable, this Twilight-Zone-type hell.

So, Helen, if I am "wrong about Hell," you might very well be a terrible person for worshiping your God. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you're a good person who just never really thought about the implications of a God who allows eternal torment. But now that you've read this, I hope you think about it the next time you point your finger at someone like me and assume that I deserve this kind of torture. After all, if I deserve it "after I'm dead," then it logically follows that they might as well put me in a torture camp right now, for being an unbeliever.

Is that really the kind of person you are, Helen?

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Comment by Rev Hellbound Alleee on April 9, 2009 at 9:29am
I wonder if people fear death for the same reason they are compelled to spread their genes, to breed.

Or do people wish to breed because they fear death?
Comment by Talibangelist on April 9, 2009 at 8:02am
Wow, all of this makes just dying and having foreknowledge of your body rotting in a box, or ashes, or dissected remains because you donated your corpse to a college, not seem so bad. I think I'll just remain a godless wretch and be happy knowing I leave a shit-ton of crazy behind when I die.

Emotions about death are so weird! I think that is why so many "believers" will swallow such magnitudes of shit in order to think everything will be better then than it is now.
Comment by Rev Hellbound Alleee on April 9, 2009 at 7:29am
Interesting. It would be not unlike lying in a hospital bed being pumped with drugs. Or--the Matrix.

It's what Joseph Campbell said, in "The Power of Myth," that the face of God would be so powerful, that we would just sit there looking at Him. His face is so all-encompassing and finally apparent to those transformed, that it would be all you see, anyway.

And then, of course, you would hear the Seraphim screeching "Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty" over and over for eternity.

What a freak show, right? Here you are, floating in a giant ruby and emerald cube that shines beams on everything, while in this throne room Jesus sits there with seven eyes and seven crowns, ostensibly a lamb. No need for a democracy when your people are blissed out on GodTV.

And for some reason they need their "family" to be there. I highly doubt that the writers could have grasped the concept of such an exponential growth of family there would be, and how many people would be considered a family. Of course, it most likely changed between the OT and NT, when there might have been matriarchal family lines shifting to patriarchal. Think of it. I would go to heaven and be greeted by the Plantagenets--or not, since I'm from more of an Edmund Blackadder line of the Plantagenets. If it went from my Father, I probably wouldn't see most of them because they are in the solar system shared by Kolab in some far away galaxy.
Comment by Rosemary LYNDALL WEMM on April 8, 2009 at 11:56pm
Does one have sex in Heaven? If so, what happens with multiple spouses? And what happens if you are forced to put up with a whole hoard of people that made your life Hell on Earth?

If Heaven existed and was like anything I have ever been told about it, I would be bored to insanity and eternity would be absolute psychological Hell. As a psychologist, I am not sure that this would be any better than eternal physical torture: just different. If we were all Spirits blissfully spaced out on the "love of god" then it would be little different from a drug-induced dream state. I suppose that means that we would be unaware of anything very much. That would probably block out the screaming agony of the physically abused in the alternative Hell.
Comment by Rev Hellbound Alleee on April 8, 2009 at 9:30pm
So then I guess that Baptists and Pentecostals have a similar view of heaven that Buddhists do! I don't know if they would like to hear that, lol!
Comment by Talibangelist on April 8, 2009 at 7:30pm
Thanks, too for the complement Allee, and to clarify that is not my wife's view of heaven that is the view of heaven I was taught as a child in several different southern baptist and pentecostal churches here in Florida.
Comment by Talibangelist on April 8, 2009 at 7:28pm
What bugs me is that to them, what we are demands that we receive the worst possible punishment and it irreversible no less. That makes us less than shit. I know for a fact that I am far better morally and socially than 90% of all those fuckin hypocrites and not even close to being as shitty as them. I draw reference from my family and friends since I know them best of all the xtians I know, and feel safe in calling into question their "morality" and none of them fuck kids or anything like a lot of the "believers" out there. Yet we are eternally damned for not believing a really poorly concocted lie.....
Comment by Allison Schreier on April 8, 2009 at 5:47pm
I completely agree.. how is ok that our friends, family and co-workers believe we are going to hell. I hate the idea of them having this insane mind set... it is complete insanity. I am NOT ok with the fact that people actually believe just because I dont repent my sins to jesus I am doomed to an eternity in hell, regardless of all the good I do. It's bull
Comment by Rev Hellbound Alleee on April 8, 2009 at 10:43am
Talibangelist, that was a great comment on heaven. Her heaven is not the same as yours.

But the heaven of the bible is one heaven, where everyone is "transformed." Essentially, you are not you anymore. If heaven is the same for everybody, and everybody has perfect bliss, then everybody is a robot. Nobody has free will at all.

Your wife sounds like she's thinking of Buddhism, or some kind of idea of Nirvana. When you no longer desire anything, so it stands that you have everything that you want. Nirvana. But that has nothing to do with Christian heaven according to the bible.

John says there are mansions in heaven. John the elder says it's a city made of Jewels. Ephesians talk about riches, although I don't know if they are material. Hebrews says its a city with walls and gates. Of course, it's a cube, 1200 miles. The higher-minded say that all the joy comes from being with Jesus, and the more matter-of-fact theorize that all we'd ever do is look at God, constantly, which reminds me of that mirror in Harry Potter. Are we so excited to do that; find something so great to look at that we end up like that for eternity?

I did a show about Heaven, and what a lot of internet christian message boards had to say. It turns out that they all want to do stuff they should damned well be doing now. You know that old question: what would you do if you were a billionaire, and whatever people answer tends to be simply the things they want most in life? I think that's how it is with a lot of people's concepts of heaven. If that's what they want to do (short of things that are supernatural), then that's what they should be doing. I mean, they're saying "take accordion lessons," and "learn French." Seriously.
Comment by Richard Healy on April 8, 2009 at 7:39am
On the subject of 'what would Heaven be like?'

I wonder if it will match the gaudy kitsch of this:

http://www.heaventhegame.com/

(takes a few moments to load)

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