My only communication with him is by e-mail now, and ever since leaving home on bad terms at 18. It should be noted that my dad, unlike my mom, has been loving in spite of everything, so we have managed to keep our relationship mostly in tact. (any names mentioned have been changed in this account.)

Hey dad,


Sorry it's taken so long for me to reply. It's been really busy up here with the vacationers. I had 40 + hour weeks this week and last at work ... so it's been hectic. In the little free time I
had, I wanted to practice math ... I didn't do as much as I would have
liked, but didn't neglect it completely. I have to keep it up though - I
only have a year at this point to cram it all in my brain. The guitar
playing is going better - on a good week, I practice about 30 minutes
every day. I didn't get to much last week though ... still, I'm getting
better slowly. My fingers don't hurt as much as I expected based on your
warning, and I get the basic concept of how to play ... mostly what is
hard for me is learning to read music. It seems to be easier for me to
memorize and play than to read as I go. I need to learn to read music
though.


As for your question (who was Jesus?), I have to disagree about it being 'the best place to start'. It may be the best place to start in terms of
evangelizing, but I am not interested in being witnessed to. I know the
routine as it's one that I've been far more than exposed to for most of
my life. I even shadowed you in EE if you remember, as well as read 'the
Case for Faith' in youth group and again, years later on my own, so I
can predict where you were headed with that.


I'm far more interested in the 'evidence' that led you to your decision (to have faith that Jesus is who he said he was). I already know, obviously, who Jesus
is to you ... but why that decision for you personally- and what pushed
you to it? I am also more than familiar with C.S. Lewis' logic as to why
choice A supposedly makes the most sense (i.e. how can you believe him
to be a good person AND a liar, the signs of him not being crazy, etc
etc) I'm not having a debate with C.S. Lewis, though - I'd like to know
in detail what you believe and the logical reasons as to why it's worth
believing, to you. Since you've also claimed to be interested in what I
believe, I will do the same. I hope this is truly the case (that you
want to know what I believe) rather than an excuse to witness. I don't
mean to accuse, but it's just that, based on the way it started, it
reminded me of the EE routine. I'd like to keep this as a
discussion/debate - where you present your side and I, mine. :)


As for your question, I will still answer it, although my view does not really fit into the box of choices you've presented me with. That said, I pick D)
he was a man and the story about him grew vastly out of proportion over
time. (ref. the telephone game, any word of mouth communication, etc)


I believe he existed (there is plenty of evidence to support that) However, I think it's pretty ridiculous to assume that because people said he claimed to
be God that he MUST have claimed to be God. Your options have a
prerequisite of the Bible being completely accurate, which we cannot
assume.


Winston Churchill was a great man; one of whom people sometimes believed to be the reincarnation of king Arthur. If he had lived during
the dark ages, back when people assumed that magic, demonism,
witchcraft, etc. all existed (and believed in them in order to explain
the (at the time) VAST gaps in the knowledge science now provides), it
would be entirely possible that, over 2000 years, people could build a
religion around his simple good deeds based on that one crazy rumor
.

At the time Jesus lived, the Jews had been looking and praying for a messiah for centuries. It would be easy to assign those attributes to a great man (Jesus) to acquire the comfort provided by his message, and make it seem
more real
.

Even though this is the view that makes the most sense to me, I still do understand why people want to have faith (in Jesus, particularly). I also don't see any major problems
with having that faith (even though I personally feel it's a waste to
willingly choose such a narrow view of life when a more objective path
allows you to see and understand so much more), unless that faith is
taken to an unhealthy extreme (ex. when Christians, rather than mind
their own lives, choose to butt into the lives of others, sometimes to
the point of abuse or even death - wars, murder 'in the name of God',
etc etc.)


While I'd still like to know the specific evidence that led you to Christianity, I personally believe that the Christian faith has very little to do with actual evidence and
everything to do with mental and emotional comfort. I can even recall
you, in a past e-mail, claiming to have been 'attracted' to
Christianity's message because it was a nicer and happier view, the idea
of an afterlife. The truth is rarely happy though, in fact, it's often
cold (when you tear away what I call 'the fluff'). Humans (not just
Christians) believe what they want to believe ... we believe what is
comforting to us ... we believe what fits our emotional needs. That is
how the mind works. I'm sure you've heard stories of victims that have
experienced some sort of trauma, where the mind at some point buries the
truth of what happened because it was too much to take (too
uncomfortable). The mind does not like to be uncomfortable - asberger's
syndrome as well as various other mental disorders are extremes of this,
where you can more easily see the evidence of how the mind repels
change (remember Jeb and his routines?), but we all in fact are that way
to some extent. An example is the girl who just broke up with her
long-term abusive boyfriend. Logically, she has every reason to leave,
but somehow clings to him still (in a way, a form of Stockholm
syndrome: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome).
Even when things are obviously 'bad', 'wrong', or 'unhealthy', the
mind has gotten used to this scenario (it's become routine) and it
doesn't want to change (familiarity = comfort; change= fear of the
unknown.)


Basically, the human mind is wired to 'fear the unknown' (although to what degree varies from person to person; ex. someone with aspergers vs. the adventurer who seems to 'get off' on
that same fear) ... and this is something we must fight to get anywhere
in life. I believe that faith in Jesus, while a nice thought, is nothing
more than a comforting idea to ease the mind's natural fear of the
unknown, but on a much larger scale (i.e. it affects one's entire world
view, as opposed to getting out of a relationship or changing jobs). I
think it is impossible to know anything for sure, and this especially
applies to 'what happens after we die'. Since I believe 'it is
impossible to know anything for sure' and that the message in
Christianity is nothing more than 'a comforting idea' to ease our 'fear
of the unknown', I've decided to live as objectively as possible; even
though I believe it impossible for any person to remain fully objective
in life due to the minds needs for certain comforts, objectivity is what
I strive for. I will try my best not to attach myself to any comforting
idea, ultimately because I don't want to be comforted .... I want to
see and I want to know; I don't want anything to hold me down as I truly
explore the world around me, and that requires me to be 'uncomfortable'
at times. I've decided that learning is more important to me than
comfort, and I don't want to 'grow' in the jar that any religion will
trap me in; I want to grow as truly and freely as I can.

I know you may not accept/understand/want to understand what I'm saying, but you said you wanted to know my view, so I presented it. I
hope you can look at it from an objective stand point; I don't want you
to think poorly of me or to be hurt by it. I know that, based on your
faith, the decision to accept Jesus is literally 'life or death'. This
is why I worry that you are hurt by my view ('only the saved make it
into heaven, those who believe in Jesus as their personal savior').

This brings me to another point: what is your opinion of the idea 'once saved, always saved?'. I ask this because I truly left my faith
behind. (This is my 'testimony', as to how and why I left my faith
behind) When it existed, it was very real to me. There were many things
I didn't like about 'Christians' even from an young age (things that
didn't seem 'right' to me, things that didn't connect) and there were
definitely doubts that I ignored at the time (things that didn't make
sense, but that I still clung to, sticking with what I'd always known
(ref. change is scary!!)) ... but none of that changes the fact that I
truly believed I was saved, at the time. I faithfully prayed to God, and
I really did believe in his existence, and in Jesus as my personal
savior. I was young, naive, and inexperienced with life, but my faith
was real. As I grew older, as I got to know more people (even ones
outside the 'bubble' of Christianity), as I became more and more
experienced with life ... the 'flaws' of Christianity became more and
more evident. Still, I wasn't ready to give up what had always comforted
me, for as long as I could remember. I concluded that 'Christians' were
just bad examples most of the time, but that Jesus was still real and
perfect. This period was my gradual transition into agnosticism, but
eventually, I realized my faith was holding me back from what I wanted
out of life: to learn and grow (that is truly all I desire from life).
This was the turning point for me. I came to a place where I realized
that I didn't know how to live without that comforting message, but that
I NEEDED to get out of my comfort zone to explore and see life for what
it really is. I knew it wouldn't always be pretty, warm, or fuzzy ...
but knowing became more important to me than feeling comfortable. On a
physical level, experiencing Daniel's lifestyle might have been what
brought this to the surface - losing all my physical comforts (a stable
place to live, always food to eat, money for things, security in
general) ... all the little things I never knew to be thankful for. As
rough as that ride was, it was worth it in the end because of the
knowledge and experience gained.

Quite honestly, I think I have a fetish for struggling. Where exactly it came from, I am not sure ... but it could have something to
do with my 'routine' of struggling (even as a child, my little opinions
often differed immensely from mom's, and so I almost always had to
'fight' for what I wanted - even the little things.) For whatever
reason, I seem to like to 'fight', at my core (not physically ... and
not always, as I am non-confrontational in most situations.) I'm sure
that had a lot to do with my infatuation with Daniel in the beginning of
our relationship (fighting for him) and I'm sure it's also why I adapted
so easily to the new lifestyle (moving in combined with the craziness
of his living situation) - I was all ready to endure whatever I needed
to get through it. While this is a trait that I am proud of (that I am
willing to fight and be strong), I am also aware that it is one to be
controlled (i.e. 'fighting for the sake of fighting is never a good
thing. "choose your battles.")

While this trait led me to many 'mistakes' I'm sure, and caused me to not handle some situations perfectly, it got me where I am today, for
which I am grateful. This may not make much sense to you, but the
freedom and feelings of 'joy' that Christians claim to have experienced
when they gave their lives over to Christ are the same feelings I
experienced when I started throwing that view away. I realize however,
that those 'feelings' (both in my situation and the new Christian's) are
only a positive emotional side effect of the idea of a 'change for the
better', but I thought I'd point it out all the same. In the same way
the new Christian feels a sense of relief when he decides to believe all
his sins have been washed away and that he's turning over a new leaf, a
'fresh start', I also felt 'rejuvenated', no longer having to cling to a
view that didn't make sense; it made me feel like 'a new person'. Any
sincere decision for a lifestyle change 'for the better' would make a
person feel this way.

I guess what I'm mostly curious about is your opinion of my view in general, but particularly on 'the mind's fear of the unknown' and it's
connection to Christianity (the 'need' for religion). As mentioned, also
the evidence that led you to believe. I'd also like to honestly know
how much the 'desire for a comforting message' had to do with that
decision. Was that almost the entire reason, or did the 'scientific
evidence' come first? Maybe this would be hard or impossible to answer
honestly. :-/

On a final note, I just want you to know that I think faith in Jesus (faith in general) can be a good thing. Even if it can't be proven (the
whole point of 'faith' is to believe even though there is no definite
proof). I think for those that want to live a simple, happy life ....
the message is perfect, and comforting. I don't think there is anything
wrong with wanting to be comfortable in some things, as long as it isn't
holding you back from something else you want even more (i.e. it's
more comfortable to not learn how to drive for some people, but they are
often better off learning anyway, getting past that, so that they can
become more independent). If you like your faith, I wouldn't want to
take it away (not that I could - people believe what they want to). It's
just that, for me, I do not want or need it.

I am hesitant to send this, because a part of me is afraid that maybe it would be better left unsaid, but I also feel compelled to
express some of these things. I know some may hurt your feelings, but I
just hope they aren't hurt too much. It really isn't my intention ...
it's just that I know I can never express any of this to mom, and it's a
topic that is very important and interesting to me; something it'd be
nice to talk to a parent about (most never get this chance, due to the
'stickiness' of it). Even though our views in this obviously differ,
it'd be interesting to know your personal story ... and I'd also like
for you to know mine ... and just for you to know that I don't live
blindly ... I do have thought out reasons for my opinions.

love,

Bee

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Comment by Earther on October 15, 2010 at 7:13pm
Just please don't wear a meat dress like Lady Gaga. It's just too gross. I use humor to help me get over the condemning thoughts of others on religios issues.
Comment by Sarah Bova on October 15, 2010 at 6:32pm
John,

"At a certain point we should be as honest as possible with our family. This is the only way we can have a quality relationship. Lies are a poison... either for you or for them."

I agree. Although, I do not ever expect a quality relationship with my mother (I will be open to one, however, if there is evidence of a change). We must keep it extremely superficial in order to get along. It's hard because she throws God in everything she says (and I'm not sure if it's out of habit or due to a hidden agenda like in the past). My dad however is capable of regular conversation. He can turn 'zombie-mode' on and off at will. We have a chance.

As for the lies, my parents currently know nothing about my personal life (for all they know, I'm still living in sin with my ex. I'm still living in sin, ^_- just not with the same sinner). The way they (well, she) ostracized me over my first relationship makes me want to leave them out completely. I'd love to involve my dad, but he is very submissive to my mom so even that is not possible. If she gave me hell over my first boyfriend (who was 'unchurched' but at least open to the idea of Christianity. He was very open-minded, but also very idealistic) I can only imagine what she'd have to say about my current one (a science nerd who was raised in the church but came to the logical conclusion that it was all BS). Ugh - I just don't want to be bothered ...

Maybe I will eventually open up (surely if we ever have a kid together!) ... but honesty can only help relationships that are capable of growth. Unless my mom learns to be more tolerant, it's pretty hopeless.
Comment by Sarah Bova on October 15, 2010 at 6:16pm
Brian,

"I was constantly looking for something, but never sure of anything."

yes, that about sums me up!

I will be sure to check out your blog post.
Comment by Sarah Bova on October 15, 2010 at 6:13pm
Glen,

You're so fortunate, being raised to question your world. On one hand, I am jealous ... but I must say, there is a part of me that appreciates the struggles involved in my own experience. Either way, if I ever have kids, I am going to raise them to think for themselves - and I'm going to make sure they learn 'how to learn'.

I see your point, Atheists needing to step up and lead the masses. I also agree that there's probably not a lot to worry about in terms of losing/winning the debate. ugh, I was just trying to make an excuse. I must admit, I'm not a strong debater. I'd like to be ... I do fantasize about it though :) It's a lack of confidence thing. With my dad though, it's not so much that ... honestly, I think it just boils down to me being kind of a pussy. :-/ He's my dad and all. He's not like my mom - he doesn't get offended and he'd never stop talking to me over something like this ... I'm pretty certain of that. We'd drop it and continue about our lives. I probably will eventually have this debate with him. Dragging things out is just kind of my style .... :) *sigh*
Comment by Brian J Geisler on October 15, 2010 at 12:03pm
If you get a chance read my blog post "The Quest" ...i think we have very similar view points
Comment by Brian J Geisler on October 15, 2010 at 11:55am
Intriguing Bee. My family is very Roman/Irish Catholic. And from there, I have have born again cousins--even one who travels around in a van for some jesus juice drinking church and tries to convert teens to the path of christ. He could be a complete fuck up now I guess from previous life experiences so maybe god did save his life, but i just see it as you do--an emotional inquiry in the search to not feel worthless and to give one meaning. I was constantly looking for something, but never sure of anything. I've befriended all types--from Jehovah's Witnesses to nihlists...and, to me, they're all a little looney--mostly because they are so strong in their convictions. I consider myself an agnostic, but I definitely don't believe in "God" so I guess that makes me an atheinostic. Anyway, stay true to yourself...and fuck Pascal!
Comment by Glen Rosenberg on October 15, 2010 at 11:41am
Tai Bee,
Nice to meet you.
I grew up an atheist. I was taught to question. So I had a period where I read Augustine, Aquinas, christian apologists. Came away from it wondering how the mass of man can be so confounded stupid, ignorant and gullible.
Therefore my background is unlike yours. But I think your best move is to have the debate. If the downside is deconversion and his realization that our lives are fleeting the upside is you doing your part in the real war of good and evil. I know this sounds as simplistic as a religious charlatan's say so. I have a sense that civilization is reaching critical mass and it is up to atheists to lead the masses towards the light and to replace religious dogma and all it entails with rationalism and simple values like egalitarianism and equality.
If you lose the debate your dad feels triumphant and paternal. If you win the debate you cause him to think n think n think, possibly deconvert which would make you natural allies. If neither of you has the advantage it is tougher to predict the impact on your relationship.
I have been wrong before. Just my 57 cents-inflation you know.
Comment by Sarah Bova on October 15, 2010 at 9:57am
Nice to meet you both, btw, Glen and Earther. :) The comment below is actually meant for you both.
Comment by Sarah Bova on October 15, 2010 at 9:55am
Glen - I can vaguely recall from reading 'case for faith' the 'loving christian' (I say 'loving Christian' because I know the more hateful types would simply say 'God doesn't have to be fair' or 'that's why God has called us to spread the good news' ignoring the fact that there will be people left out regardless) solution being instances where people that have had no prior exposure to Christianity (in other third world countries) have apparently fell to their knees calling out the name of Jesus, not understanding why. I wish I could get my hands on that book again because a lot of it's claims didn't stick well. (perhaps it was good enough at the time to ease my doubts - at that point, I wanted to know the truth, but there was a part of me that wanted God to be true so I think I saw what I WANTED to see) Anyway, the example was of a woman (middle eastern) calling out the name of Jesus in the middle of a dessert (I don't know how they found this out, but it was presented as evidence) really didn't set well with me ... so it sticks out in my memories. I don't know if my dad has ever read this book, but I can imagine his reply being something along the lines of 'God can find a way that seems impossible to us" which is basically the idea that the book was trying to get across.

I was brought up to believe in predestination - that God chose certain special people, and they would be saved no matter what. As mentioned in the letter, I was also brought up to believe that once you are saved, you are always saved. They solve the issue of ex-Christians by claiming simply that they were never truly saved. :) Eh, I'm losing track of my point though ...

I have an idea of what my dad would say. My issue is that, is it really nice to continue this debate? I can tell from prior e-mails that, for whatever reason, he really wants God and heaven to be real.

My dad was actually an atheist until in his mid-twenties. His father, whom he looked up to it seems, was apparently agnostic until practically on his death bed. He raised my father Catholic, but only some of the traditions - not seriously. I think that was mostly the influence of my grandmother, anyway. My dad became a Christian shortly after the death of his father.

My grandfather was apparently a chemist (sadly, I never met him - he died before I was born) and apparently an interesting and intelligent man. My dad seems to take after him, even though it's hard to tell when he goes in religious-zombie-mode. He's an engineer and uses that engineering mind of his in every area of life ... but turns it off completely for Christianity.

I did get an open and honest reply from him. Aside from conversations with his sister, this is where I got a lot of my information from. He's seems open to a debate, but I'm just not confident that it's a good idea. I guess it's not like I'm pushing anything on him - he says he wants it -but it just feels mean. I guess I've been trying to re-evaluate my motives and weigh them against the possible outcomes ...
Comment by Earther on October 14, 2010 at 5:30pm
I can't believe I read the whole letter. Tai Bee family dynamics are going to be the most painful and the most rewarding. I have no idea if it is the right or wrong path to continue investigating what your parents or family will do to see you as you are. We continue to drop coins in the basket in hope for a better future. The parent/child relationship though will always have a separation period and a reunion period. Finding comfort as you say or being uncomfortable for the sake of truth all has its place. As you grow older you may start comparing comfort to efficiency and sustainability.

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