Atheists: when disbelief does not equal logic or critical thinking.
One of these bandwagons was the anti vac crowd. I was 19 and I grew up with a friend who hadn't been vaccinated. I never really thought about why until I read some anti vaccine argument online. Vaccines cause Autism?! What a terrifying thought! And, in the anti vac community one tends to forget that without them far more children would be dying than getting autism even if it were true- which it's not. It didn't take much researching to find out that it was a load of bull. The main argument is that the perservative, thermisol, derived from mercury can cause autism. Autism is diagnosed about the same time that the MMR vaccine is given and it's a classic case of corelation not equally causation. Dozens of studies all conclude that vaccines do not cause autism. But one more piece of logic is missing and that is, as I mentioned before, that the sheer number of children who would die from these childhood killers (and they're called killers for a reason) makes any risk or autism completely worth it. The anti vac crowd takes the selfish stance that their child is more important than all the other children who would die should herd immunity vanish.
Another hot topic is circumscision. There is the intact crowd which believes that no child should have their genitals cut up and mutilated and every baby should go home intact. Then there's the pro circ crowd who's best argument is "everyone does it!". I've heard all the argument- it prevents STD's! Cutting up a boy's penis just in case he might get an STD later, or an infection for that matter, is like cuttin out a baby girl's breast tissue because she might get breast cancer later. Not only that, but cut American men get more STD's than intact European men. Condoms go much further than genital mutilation. I've also heard that babies don't feel pain or that it doesn't effect sexual pleasure or performance. 20,000 nerves are cut away. Tell me that doesn't effect pleasure. Women, how would you like to lose that many nerves from your clit? Doesn't sound all that pleasant, does it? Male genital mutilation was originally introduced in order to control masturbation. In some cultures it's purely religious. Either way there's zero reason to do it and much reason not to. And yet many atheists seem to be on the pro circ crowd. They seem to take insult with the term "genital mutilation" when used for males, but not for females. While I understand that no cut man wants to admit that his genitals have been mutilated against his will, mutilation is what it is by definition and it's no different from female genital mutilation.
The last big topic I've seen is veganism. While most vegans tend to be athiests, non vegan atheists tend to hate vegans. Why? Some believe it's because that they don't want to admit that they're doing something wrong. Atheists will abandon logic and jump on arguments like "but it's unnatural!" ignoring the fact that they're carrying a cell phone, typing on a computer, wearing polyesther blend clothing and eating hot pockets with a glass of milk- none of which is natural. Now, I can understand if an atheist says "i dont' care about animals or my health or the environment to screw it". This isn't a rejection of facts or logic- it's just.. well, being an asshole. But the fact is that most atheists assert argue things like: animals don't feel pain, they don't suffer, the death is painless, vegans are weak and unhealthy, it wouldn't make a difference, etc. They get mean and nasty and insulting out of defensiveness instead of being honest. The two best ways of dealing with your vegan friends or family? A. don't attack them every time they mention having a veggie burger for lunch. B. be honest and tell them you just don't care about animals/health/the environment C. listen, research, and become vegan.
When I became an atheist I had the crazy notion that other atheists were all really great people and super intelligent. While atheists are, on average, more intelligent than theists, it's not always true.. and they tend to not apply that intelligence to many things. It's true what they say- you really can't tell anything about a person by their atheism except their atheism.
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Comment by Heather on May 7, 2010 at 4:11pm -
susan, yeah.. that was kinda my point.
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Comment by Josh Hayden on May 7, 2010 at 4:37pm -
Apparently disbelief does not equal fairness, open-mindedness or tolerance for the opinions of others. This whole "If your not a vegan, your either a liar, an idiot or an asshole" posture is something of a departure from the "rational, logical, freethinker" label you have assumed.
Indeed, the entire paragraph on veganism proved the title of the post quite blatantly.
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Comment by Dave Rogers on May 7, 2010 at 5:17pm -
I joined a non-theist community to not have to listen to the rantings of religious zealots. I guess you can never avoid the rantings of a vegan zealot.
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Comment by sacha on May 7, 2010 at 5:20pm -
Please do not delete John's comments! No one should be silenced here. Yes, I'm vegetarian for ethical reasons. Black Magick Woman's comment makes me physically ill, however, as John pointed out, I am away from my vegetarian group which is my home. I often eat vegan, as I cook traditional Indian food and I have no recipes which call for dairy. I've already given up eggs. I may decide to go back to being vegan, but I do not want to be coaxed right now, thank you.
I'm glad you have joined my groups. You will see in No Nonsense that John can be a great guy.
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Comment by Black Magick Woman on May 7, 2010 at 5:29pm -
I'm sorry sacha, not trying to make you ill =), just trying to be honest.
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Comment by Susan Stanko on May 7, 2010 at 6:33pm -
I'm a meat eater and Black Magick Woman's comment made me feel ill.
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Comment by Jo Jerome on May 7, 2010 at 6:40pm -
Environmentalists strive to have as little impact on the earth as possible while still surviving and being happy.
*Standing ovation to you Heather.*
One of the most tired I-hate-environmentalists-argument is the argument, "So you do X for the environment, but why not Y or Z or live in a tent or just kill yourself?"
Like you say, we do what we can, when we can, within the realm of reason and reality. That said, I am just this side of living in a tent - 20' RV, currently off the grid. Solar power, I probably use 3 gallons of water a day, and I am more or less vegetarian not out of principle but because I'm simply too poor to afford meat.
But I do eat meat when I can afford it. I strive for organic, cage-free, free-roaming etc. And said 'tent'/RV gets a whopping 10 mpg.
What we can, where we can, within reason.
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Comment by Jason Spicer on May 7, 2010 at 7:22pm -
Gotta agree with Bill. I was circumcised at birth, don't remember it, wasn't emotionally scarred by it, don't know any different, and don't think I'm missing anything. There are two key differences between male circumcision and female "circumcision": intent and consequences. The purpose of female genital mutilation is to keep the female from enjoying sex, however the perpetrators view it. That doesn't seem to enter into the equation with male circumcision. As to consequences, I've heard arguments both ways, that circumcision makes the man less sensitive and more sensitive. I don't think both can be right. But for sure a clitoridectomy is bad news for a woman's sexual enjoyment. The two procedures are not even remotely equivalent. Claiming male circumcision to be as bad an atrocity as female "circumcision" just insults the intelligence.
I do find it relatively persuasive that elective surgery ought not be done on infants who are incapable of informed consent and who may later wish it had not been done, but apart from that, the science doesn't seem to be terribly compelling in any particular direction WRT to male circumcision. The same cannot be said of female "circumcision", a decidedly misogynistic and crippling practice.
As to vegetarianism, I find the resource-use argument compelling, but apparently not sufficiently so to override my genetic predisposition to include meat in my diet. And I really don't get veganism. If you're not killing the cow or chicken, and they're not using the milk or eggs, why not? Seems like a reasonable symbiosis to me.
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Comment by Heather on May 7, 2010 at 7:42pm
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Some of the commenters here have proven my point beautifully :-) If we had any commenters that believed in ghosts or not vaccinating their kids I'm sure I'd be hearing vehement arguments against my blog from them as well.
Bill, you think cutting open the genitals of an adult is worse than doing it to a baby? that's a little.. er.. okay.. it should never be done- as an adult or as an infant. To males or females.
jerome- good for you for being as off the grid as possible- i think that's what most environmentalists strive towards and cheaper and more accessible forms of alternative energy are making that goal closer and closer every day for millions of people.
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Comment by JayBarti on May 7, 2010 at 8:07pm -
When I became an atheist I had the crazy notion that other atheists were all really great people and super intelligent.
Where do you put yourself in this statement? Are you super intelligent, just curious?
I agree with most of what you say...
The act of cutting or operating on any child should always be carefully considered in regards to the overall heath and welfare of the child. I myself am circumcised and as far as I knew for most of my life it was the norm. Do I think it should be done no, but where I live it is still legal and low on what I think should be tackled in government policy right now speaking as a civic minded citizen.
Personally I am an omnivore, the way we treat our herd animals however is abysmal and should be fixed. What we do with their corpses afterwards shouldn't be an issue really.
They are a part of our history and our environment and we wouldn't be the species we are today without them. They are however as much genetically manipulated at this point as any of our companion species (dogs, cats, pigs, etc). Some species such as pigs are actually particularly intelligent and wonderful animals who are among the most mistreated of our companions.
Constant meat consumption is a luxury of western culture and it appears when tagged with a high calorie diet can lead to bad things.
More of our overall diet probably does need to move to more farming however the overall return on investment isn't much better.
Population is the main problem with energy a close second and without a second green revolution right now the clock is ticking. Given the hostility to GMO it might slow it down considerably.
Eating healthier is the clear choice, I do not have a problem what you choose to do to achieve that, eat however you want, it is your choice.
The last big topic I've seen is veganism. While most vegans tend to be athiests, non vegan atheists tend to hate vegans.
A. don't attack them every time they mention having a veggie burger for lunch. B. be honest and tell them you just don't care about animals/health/the environment C. listen, research, and become vegan.
You seem to be saying that being an intelligent atheist means having to be a vegan as well or else we are not intelligent atheists. And that if we are not a vegan then we are certainly are not as an intelligent ape as you might be.
That seems to be counter intuitive to what you are trying to accomplish. You do realize that this isn't the way to win someone to your side of the argument.
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