a%20real%20conversation%20with%20a%20believer.docx

this is a real conversation i had with a believer over facebook messages. the names were deleted to prtect his anonymity and the times were erased to make the reading easier.

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Comment by Michael Penn on December 9, 2013 at 10:02am

Your believer is a little flakey and believes  things without evidence. Apparently BC is "before christ" and AD is "after death." (Well, got one of them right.) If we divide history by him, then it must all be true. Yeah, right!

Thor, many other gods too numerous to mention, the Martian canals, and the Jukes family have all fell by the wayside. Just give it time.

Comment by Richard Goscicki on December 8, 2013 at 11:58am

Though for Irrational people, their delusional view (fear and torment) of such concepts is blatantly obvious.>>>

Lexy, Not so obvious to people living before Darwin.  The irrational superstitious stuff was all they had.  That’s why all the hell bullshit was so effective. 

Interestingly, according to Barbara Walker in Man Made God, she states that until the Council of Nicea 325 AD, there was no concept of the underworld as a place of eternal punishment.  Hel was the Norse Queen of the Underworld and reigned over Viking heroes that died “sword in hand.” 

Even the ancient Greeks and Romans couldn’t come up with an idea so sick and sinister as eternal fire.  Erebus, Hades or Tartarus were merely dark, damp, cheerless places of slumber, but there wasn't the horrible torture that Christians bishops came up with.

In numerous conversations over the years, Barbara and I pretty much agree that the Emperor Constantine caused more harm to humanity than any person who ever lived, including Hitler who killed millions.  Constantine imposed Christianity on the Roman Empire and set the world back hundreds of years.

Click on the marijuana plant at the right for more of Barbara's work, a fun, interesting and educational read.  

 

Comment by Dyslexic's DOG on December 7, 2013 at 6:15pm

Though the Hell concept has it's uses.

Makes an effective looking end in DOOM 2 or Duke Nukem and other such games and movies.

Hell and Heaven are great joke fodder.

That's about the limit of the use of such concepts to rational people.

Though for Irrational people, their delusional view (fear and torment) of such concepts is blatantly obvious.

Hopefully the evolution of humans from irrational (transitional fossils)  to rational won't take long.

Comment by reuma eshet on December 7, 2013 at 4:50pm

i always find it funny when people threaten me with imaginary punishment. it's just as effective as offering imaginary reward...

Comment by Loren Miller on December 7, 2013 at 8:46am

Another thing about the whole hell business: it's meant as a THREAT.  "Do it our way or you suffer for all eternity!"  Another question for your friend: how moral is it to posit a situation which has NO EVIDENCE AT ALL, yet you're supposed to believe it anyway, and condemns those who don't accept it to everlasting torment Because They Used Logic On It?

As Richard said, are we to be condemned for using the reason that their deity supposedly gave us?

Comment by Richard Goscicki on December 7, 2013 at 8:41am

< One believer even told me that I am going to hell.>>>

When someone tells me that I ask back, do you think God will punish me for refusing to abandon reason?

Also taken from my book on the right, Pot Stories: 

Just think, no American serial killer has ever come up with a concept so sadistic as eternal fire—and we had some pretty sick mothafukkers.  And God is willing to damn you there for the sin of not believing obvious bullshit, not having faith.  To anyone with a brain that should throw up a red flag. 

Another consideration is God created most people knowing they’re going “down there.”  He did it anyway. 

 

Comment by Mika Mikaela on December 7, 2013 at 7:41am

I have been living in Israel for almost 6 years now.I often get that surprise reaction when people notice that I am an Atheist.The holy land, Jesus Christ,the Chosen people, his miracles and salvation are always to topics of debate. One believer even told me that I am going to hell. I simply reply by saying,I'm one of the atheists who is not bothered by being told I'm going to hell... to me it seems so silly-- like someone telling me Santa won't bring me presents.

Comment by reuma eshet on December 7, 2013 at 4:32am

lol. of course spiderman exists! it's written right there in the comic book! it even mentions new york!  so it must be real!
i hope there were no negative feelings between us, we still talk a bit from time to time.
and yes, good points about hell and pain.

Comment by Dyslexic's DOG on December 7, 2013 at 1:34am

True Loren,

Nice convo reuma, not hard feelings between you, well not obvious ones anyway, because who knows what he was saying after it finished.

One thing about death and going to hell that theists cannot answer, is how can anybody feel pain when pain is an illusion, whose source remains in the body at death.  With no pain and most of your friends and relatives there, Hell could be much more fun than their Heaven.

Yes, Heaven would also be lonely, since there is a less than 1% chance that anybody would get there, so almost everybody you ever knew, would be in Hell anyway. Which raises another question about why would anybody want an eternity of loneliness with complete strangers.

Unless as in Islam, you were getting 72 virgins, which may turn out to be the wrong gender for your desires, since the Koran doesn't stipulate what gender the virgins are.

LOL!

Pain is and illusion developed through evolution to protect the vital organs and signal attacks from enemies, like bites and attacks from bacteria, viruses, etc....

In a spiritual form, no such organ and epidermal protection is necessary.

Thus no need for Pain.

Though go easy on the super heroes like spidey, because I want to believe they exist!  :-D

Comment by reuma eshet on December 6, 2013 at 6:29pm

indeed there are. and he even at one point admit that i have a point.
anyway i try to let him get to those basic questions on his own time while he was trying to explain his beliefs.

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