Comment

Comment by Reverend Slim / Michael Ham on September 30, 2008 at 11:33am

Nate...I don't want to go into the question of "free will" but the substitution of reality for fantasy as you describe and as it pertains to your gradual rejection of the fantasy of your religious cult's teachings describes just that..the gradual substitution of non-delusional thinking for delusional thinking...not the temporary substitution of lessor or different fantasies.

The following is my personal opinion. Your cult's denomination of your mindset...temporarily for you...was a result of your rejection of personal responsibilities, a dependency, a need to have your opinions and beliefs given to you by others...clearly indicating your unwillingness to be truthful with yourself.

Religion is an addiction and a crutch. Sometimes a substitute addiction is used as a substitute for another...but this only enhances as valid the use of addictions and magical thinking as a cure, but the cure is actually only a panacea. An example would be substituting religion for alcohol addiction. Maybe the addiction to alcohol can be broken but the propensity for the alcoholic to use crutches is bolstered.

Comment by Nate on September 30, 2008 at 10:19am

[TJ.."First you give them their dose of fiction they are addicted to, and slowly but surely you give them less fiction everyday untill there is no fiction left. They are then left living in reality."

I don't agree...perhaps if you gave me an example or an illustration of your proposal.]

Michael..Having left a cult I can relate to what TJ is proposing. Others that have left have begun their journey out by comparing the cult's strict and extremely narrow interpretation of scripture to more mainstream views. Unfortunately, some feel comfortable there and thus ends their quest, for the reasons that you and TJ have described. But others, like myself, continue to shed religious delusions until arriving at unadulterated reality albeit hazy and distorted by our current limitations.

As for how this relates to the question of free-will, one has to wonder why some continue to embrace delusion while others abandon it when presented with the same information. I think the reasons are purely Naturalistic- genetics(who we are) and environment(where we've been, who we've met, what we've read, when we've lived, where we've lived, what we've lost, advantages enjoyed, etc., etc.).

Comment by TJMorgan on September 30, 2008 at 9:19am

It doesn't necessarily need to be a fiction, but something that at least at first motivates them enough, that comforts them enough that can replace the motivation and comfort their belief in god provides. Then slowly we can expose them to other truths that they try to avoid, like they are going to die, there is no afterlife, purpose is subjective, ect...

But the cold turkey making them face the facts right now is not working, it further scares them and makes them hide in their hole deeper. We need to lure them out of their hole first.

Comment by Reverend Slim / Michael Ham on September 30, 2008 at 9:03am

TJ.."First you give them their dose of fiction they are addicted to, and slowly but surely you give them less fiction everyday untill there is no fiction left. They are then left living in reality."

I don't agree...perhaps if you gave me an example or an illustration of your proposal.

Comment by TJMorgan on September 30, 2008 at 8:47am

You have to be able to reach them first, if you can reach them first with reality, then slowly lure them into it even if it requires fiction at first. First you give them their dose of fiction they are addicted to, and slowly but surely you give them less fiction everyday untill there is no fiction left. They are then left living in reality.

The straight hit em up with what is real isn't working. We need to recondition them out of that thinking.

Comment by Reverend Slim / Michael Ham on September 30, 2008 at 8:13am

TJ..."Michael, you don't have to accept absolute determinism to not accept free-will just like you don't have to fully accept evolution to deny the existence of a god." I don't really follow your analogy (how would one partially accept evolution?)..but like you say..."trying not to derail the topic".

"Once you shake thier faith, even if it is with another fiction, then perhaps we can introduce them to reality. - Slowly."

It seems counterproductive to the establishment of a non-delusional mindset, to disrupt one illusion by the use of another. This would amount to the endorsement of the process of non rational thought.

Comment by TJMorgan on September 30, 2008 at 7:50am

Michael, you don't have to accept absolute determinism to not accept free-will just like you don't have to fully accept evolution to deny the existence of a god. Trying not to derail the topic so I will move on. I agree that the believers basis for believing isn't based on reason and logic to begin with, it is based on their desire for comfort, and therefore, it makes it very difficult to shake a believers faith or belief with reason and logic. It is almost as if we will need to shake their faith for one fiction with another fiction that may at least be parallel to the truth. One step at a time if you will. Once you shake thier faith, even if it is with another fiction, then perhaps we can introduce them to reality. - Slowly.

Comment by Reverend Slim / Michael Ham on September 30, 2008 at 7:40am

Ruth...I read a couple of pages of the post and thread about "free will" you mentioned. I have been deep into similar conversations..(I had no choice?) and I understand the premise of determinism. There is no point in posting my thoughts about determinism here...it would be off topic for your "Punk'd again.." essay, but I do not accept determinism as a valid stand alone concept.

I do think the explanation for the failure of many people to (be able to) live within the bounds of reason and logic can be attributed to the chain of perpetual delusion initiated and fueled by Man's need for answers and comfort.

The "answer" doesn't have to be valid...it has to provide comfort or a feeling of security. As Eric Hoffer said..."Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitution for the lost faith in ourselves."

This is why the 'faith' of the believer is in most cases...unshakable. The believer has nothing he can use to replace the security of belonging to the flock and the comfort of surrendering his individual responsibilities.

Comment by Doug Harrington on September 30, 2008 at 12:57am

Now; where is God during the recent collapse of Wall Street? How many of these rich folks are kneeling beside their beds praying that their "Awsome God" will save them from financual despair?
The "Free Wheeling," " Bible Thumping," "Evangelicals," will be scrambling to get the money out of the banks that they have been fleecing from their poor stupid congregations all these years.

"Hello," "Wake up call!" God won't help you! Game over Pastors!

Doug Harrington

Comment by Ruth Dickson on September 29, 2008 at 1:16pm

Michael..There's a lengthy thread on this topic here. There's also a group called "No Free Will" (or something like that). Check them out...BIG topic around here.

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