Having a conversation, either on line or face to face, with a Christian is something all of us have endured. Just out of curiosity, can anybody point to an incident where they accomplished anything by doing so? I know I can’t, but maybe some of you have a higher tolerance for fools than me.

So why talk to them? Perhaps you are afraid that by not responding you concede the argument and they win by default. This appears to have merit until you examine the idea closer. The premise is you can win an argument with a Christian.

There are several reasons this is impossible. There’s the difference between intelligence and ignorance. Christians want to couch the argument in terms of Faith Versus Reason since it implies there is an equality and similarity between the two.

There is a fundamental difference between faith and reason best illustrated by the Two Switches analogy.

Faith is an on/off switch. Either you have it or you don’t.

Reason is a dimmer switch with absolute the darkness of ignorance on one end of the spectrum and the full light of knowledge on the other.

Christian faith permits no compromise, no concession even on the smallest of points. It is all or nothing.

Reason is all about compromise, concession, revision, rethinking, admitting when you are wrong and adapting your beliefs to new evidence. In conversation a reasonable man believes that he can educate his opponent and, with the right arguments framed in the right manner, the other party will be convinced. When a reasonable man loses an argument he is justifiable humbled and begins the long process of rethinking his ideas in the light of the new information or ideas he hasn’t taken into account.

A Christian cannot do this. He is not motivated by a desire to learn the truth. He is motivated by fear. The fear of going to Hell, of course, but more importantly the fear of losing his status in the tightknit community to which he belongs. A reasonable man begins with no idea where rationality will take him. A Christian begins with the conclusion then works backwards to find ways of justifying his presumptions.

This latest batch of Christians is particular frustrating and deliberately obtuse. They want to prove that God exists. They don’t get it that by searching for scientific or logical proof of the existence of God they prove nothing except they have lost their faith.

Let me say that again: Any Christian who seeks to prove the existence of God has already admitted that the evidence for the non-existence of God is so strong that their faith has been brought to ruin.

More importantly, they acknowledge that anyone exposed to the evidence will lose their faith as a result. So they run around like chickens with their heads cut off trying to find logical and scientific evidence to replace their own faithlessness.

As my brother (a Christian minister) put it, “Faith is another way of looking at the evidence.”

Say what?  

When I responded with:  "So you have examined the evidence?"  He admitted he hadn't.  

By implying he had studied the evidence when he hadn't, my brother lied.  I don't know how often I've run up against this in talking to Christians.  

That brings us to another primary reason for not talking to Christians:

Christians lie.

You can't win an argument with a liar.  All you can hope to do is point out the fact that they are lying so anyone else listening in will get the point.

 A long time ago, so long I can’t remember when I first encountered the idea; I learned something about automobile advertising. Automobile advertising is not directed at convincing people to buy a particular brand of car; rather the ads are designed to assure people who have already bought the car they made the right choice. Brand loyalty it’s called.

Christians believe first then justify later. The trolls on this site aren’t here to convince anyone of the truth of their arguments; they are here to convince honest seekers, a group to which they most certainly do not belong, that they have evidence for the belief in God. They aren’t here to join in an open conversation. They are here to throw as much bullshit they can against the wall in the hopes that some of it will stick. They are here to inoculate people against the truth by giving them the smallest dosage possible so they will not seek any further. They are here to close open minds.

They feed on ignorance. The only way they can make their billions and to exert an un-Godly political influence over the minds of free men is to keep people ignorant. Never mind their alleged founder was offered by their mythological Satan the Kingdoms of This World and he refused the deal. They believe that Jesus made the wrong choice and that he’s coming back to take Satan up on the offer.

They are worse than Islamic suicide bombers. Their own scripture condemns them. To paraphrase: “Don’t be afraid of men, who can only kill your body, fear those who can kill your mind.”

.....................................................

It’s 3 am. I stopped working on this post about 10 hours ago. I just finished watching a movie called Season of the Witch with Nicholas Cage and Ron Perlman, actors whose work I have enjoyed in the past.

There’s one more reason we shouldn’t talk to Christians.

They are the enemy.

In this movie Cage and Perlman play deserter Crusaders because they have lost their faith. They are caught and perform one last duty: transporting a young girl accused of being a witch and causing the plague. According to this piece of shit, the Inquisition was right, there really were witches! And, guess what, these witches actually did cause the Plague! Turns out the girl isn’t just a witch she’s Satan! Don’t worry, Cage and Perlman rediscover their faith and do battle against the witch/Satan in order to end the plague. There is a moment in that battle when she…Satan always uses the weaker sex who fall prey to his wiles…makes a clear statement to the priest who is reading a text in Latin from a Sacred Book…says to him: “But isn’t it true that the church has killed more people than any war?” And the priest pauses and starts to think about it. And the others yell: “Don’t listen to her!” And the priest goes back to jabbering incomprehensible words in Latin.

That this movie could be made at this time and openly shown in theaters portraying atheists in such a manner then maybe don’t you think it’s time to admit that this is a war and these people are our enemies. It’s like the Warsaw Ghetto Jewish resistance inviting the Nazis over for a debate.

The time for debate is over.

Unfortunately, the war is over, too.

We lost.

Views: 269

Tags: Christianity, Fundamentalism, lying, politics, war

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Comment by Christian Soldier on November 14, 2012 at 10:30pm
I for one am appreciative of this post because it is an honest appraisal and analysis of the futility in trying to apply logical rationale arguments for Christians on why all religion is delusional behavior.

Have you ever tried to explain to a person suffering a severe form of mental illness how their behavior is outside the realm of normalcy? The mentally ill person truly believes their state is reality and that they are reasoning normally.

What makes the Christian an even more difficult is that their license to embrace non real assumptions as being tangible reality.

How can anyone living in reality accept as reality an omniscient invisible being that created everything from the micro to the macro universe, that is aware of every living entity; knowing at every moment what they are doing, experiencing and thinking. Best of all the being can and will intervene in the best interest of the believer if invoked to do so. Well, we all know at every level that such beliefs are clinically insane!

So, why waste time that can be better spent enjoying life? I just finished a book that seeks to help the reader answer why there something instead of nothing. It's a great philosophical question. And yet the author felt obliged to pander to Xtian apologists when any average child would tell you that there is no reason to assume that a Creator instigated the universe.

My friend, all religion is for those who fear living reality.
Comment by James Yount on November 7, 2012 at 12:41pm

Yes, one of the many stories in the Bible that celebrates deceit. 

Comment by Alan Perlman on November 7, 2012 at 11:36am

James...The custom you describe represents religion at its most primitive and barbaric. 

Circumcision is a placating response to God's claim to the first born (first fruits of everything in fact).  Toss him a piece of skin, and he'll be happy.  But why go for the sex-parts instead of, say, the earlobe?  And then they compound the barbarity by making a cock-sucker out of the butcher who does the deed.  I don't know the religious justification for the oral part.  Whatever it is, it would creep me out too.

Biblical note: in Genesis 34, the Israelites punish a tribe, one of whose members has raped a daughter of Joseph, by promising peace if the men will get circumcised -- then massacring them while they're recovering from their circumcisions.  Nice.   

Comment by Stuart M Rees on November 7, 2012 at 11:04am

I had a Christian friend who loved to argue theology with me. It would always be amicable, but we would rarely get past the point of acknowledging and understanding each others point, we never changed each others minds, it just doesn't happen like that, you can't just flip a the Christian switch off. However, slowly over the years he has stopped identifying himself as Christian, as he came to realise that his beliefs about god were his own, not from any priest or church, a personal god that he had poured into a Christian mold, the religion of his upbringing/culture. Now I discuss theology with my deist friend. He may still be, in my opinion, deluded, but at least now he's thinking for himself and isn't weighed down by all the fear and blood of the Bible. So honestly I think talking with Christians is worth while (if only to plant a seed of doubt), just don't expect instant conversions.

Comment by Alan Perlman on November 6, 2012 at 8:52pm

James...Among clannish Orthodox Jews in NY, there are secret apostates afraid to come out because they would lose everything.

Looking forward to PJ's new post.

Comment by Philip Jarrett on November 6, 2012 at 3:22pm

Great article. The Internet is great for bringing people together who share the same interests and beliefs. I'm working on a new post about how to stop being a Christian and go back to being an adult.

Comment by James Yount on November 6, 2012 at 12:43pm

No prob. You can see, though, why it is so hard for these guys to throw off the shackles.  Typically, once they do they lose most everything they care about.  Family, friends, community....  In most cases, coming out atheist does nothing positive for their followers anyway, ie they still go on believing the religious hogwash.  Most people don't want to take the red pill.  Ignorance is bliss.

Comment by Alan Perlman on November 6, 2012 at 11:39am

James,

Thanks for the article - most interesting.  I learned that there's a lot more escape from religion by clerics than I thought.  It gives me faith (heh, heh) that religion's grip on the mind can be effectively opposed and even rolled back. 

Comment by James Yount on November 6, 2012 at 11:20am

Alan, consider this story. You may get some answers as to the why they do it.  http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/magazine/from-bible-belt-pastor-t...

Comment by Alan Perlman on November 6, 2012 at 11:16am

Phillip...Kudos on your escape from mental slavery.  People like me, who drift into atheism from wishy-washy religion + secular education often don't appreciate what it takes to break free of the chains of tradition.  I've heard this before:

They tell themselves, "I can't teach the truth to these people because I will cause them to lose their faith" even though their own faith has been forfeited.

At first I couldn't believe that people could be so devious. It means that clerics are guilty of both lying and hypocrisy, like a drug dealer who tells you how good his smack is but won't try it himaself.

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