"I think you are correct, but there are people who disagree. Some scientists argue that group selection does not occur at all or is so rare that it is not important. Others argue that though group selection occurs, it cannot occur for traits that do…"
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Need help with irreducible complexity
Started this discussion. Last reply by Dr. Allan H. Clark 54 minutes ago. 19 Replies 1 Like
I sent my religious father a copy of the God Delusion for Christmas. After reading it, his first response (so far, assuming there are more considering it was only on the phone) is that Richard…Continue
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Luara replied to Alexandra's discussion Need help with irreducible complexity
"yes, and there's a lmited transmission of acquired traits.
Suppose a 1-billion year old cellphone were discovered :) The only recourse for evolutionists would be to say aliens had left it there, or people were time traveling, or…"
Dr. Allan H. Clark replied to Alexandra's discussion Need help with irreducible complexity
"Don't know the answer to your questions, but two comments.
There are other mechanisms by which evolution occurs besides natural selection, for example, genetic drift in small populations is one that has been mathematically explored.
If I…"
Luara replied to Alexandra's discussion Need help with irreducible complexity
"OK, but is there a hypothetical feature that would genuinely have irreducible complexity?
I'm asking for something made up. What could not have evolved by natural selection?
What could disprove evolution by natural selection?"
Dr. Allan H. Clark replied to Alexandra's discussion Need help with irreducible complexity
"Logically it is always possible that an as yet unknown valid example of irreducible complexity exists, and as Darwin pointed out, a single such example would refute his theory, but no candidate put forward has survived scrutiny.
The two popular…"
Luara replied to Alexandra's discussion Need help with irreducible complexity
"Is it possible to come up with a hypothetical example that would be "irreducible complexity" - couldn't have evolved by natural selection?"
Dr. Allan H. Clark replied to Alexandra's discussion Need help with irreducible complexity
"The following article from the Proceedings of The National Academy of Sciences counters the argument effectively, but it is technical:
http://www.pnas.org/content/106/37/15791.long
The PNAS is a prestigious journal that only publishes papers of high…"
Tom Sarbeck replied to Alexandra's discussion Need help with irreducible complexity
"Alexandra, I'm going to try. I will first deal with possible communication problems.
In every attempt at communication, thoughts have to pass through several "screens" (a Zen idea), and at any of these screens errors can harm the…"
Mathew T. replied to Alexandra's discussion Need help with irreducible complexity
"This is another way of eventually going back to stating that abiogenesis is impossible, as many theists do. There are bound to be those here who have studied far more in depth than I have, but my own findings have been that we have absolutely NO…"
Alexandra replied to Alexandra's discussion Need help with irreducible complexity
"I haven't detected an answer to my question in the replies yet so I'll reiterate.
My problem is that what dad is suggesting makes sense to me. How can mitochondria have evolved from something that is essential in copying dna, if the dna…"
booklover replied to Alexandra's discussion Need help with irreducible complexity
"Alexandra, obviously I don't know your dad, but after reading the God Delusion, and then him explaining his reasoning to you, I don't think he's going to change his opinion. Some people just will not hear or see reason."
Greg replied to Alexandra's discussion Need help with irreducible complexity
"Ruth,
Wonderful post. Loved the image too.
I'm not a biologist so I don't know much about this stuff. I did get the impression from what little I've read that there is still plenty of debate about the origin of mitochondria. Though…"
Greg replied to Alexandra's discussion Need help with irreducible complexity
"It's no different than a child, constantly asking "why?" to every answer the parent gives. In most cases, an answer will understandably involve some aspect that requires further explanation. So, again we get "why?".…"
Ruth Anthony-Gardner replied to Alexandra's discussion Need help with irreducible complexity
"Mitochondria aren't really motors, they break down glucose for a form of energy the rest of the cell can use, changing ADP to ATP. There are tiny rotating "motors" in flagella, which are completely different. Mitochondria evolved…"
Tom Sarbeck replied to Alexandra's discussion Need help with irreducible complexity
"Loren, thanks for the link to Wikipedia's better-than-excellent article on the case. I read the decision and especially liked some of Judge Jones' concluding words:
"
Karim R. replied to Alexandra's discussion Need help with irreducible complexity
"These types of "God of the gaps" arguments are dishonest. Why? Because the believer is pulling a "bait and switch." For example, if we can't explain the existence of the mitochondrial motor, they say, that proves that God…"
Comment Wall (4 comments)
- At 5:24pm on May 1, 2012,
Steph S. said… Greetings! Welcome to the site!
- At 5:20pm on May 1, 2012,
Dr. Terence Meaden said… - Hello AlexandraWelcome to this world of rationality, truth and peace, where common sense and science lead to freethinking wisdom --- as you have found out in becoming an atheist.We invite you to make good friends by joining the busy group "ORIGINS: Universe, Astronomy, Life, Earth, Humans, Religion, Gods, Atheism, Evolution, Darwin..." with 690 discussion topics and 3400 members.
- At 1:03pm on May 1, 2012,
Ruth Anthony-Gardner said… Welcome, Alexandra! Glad you could join us. :D
Please consider joining a group to meet people and talk about anything that's on your mind, Hang With Friends. You might also like Atheist Artists, Atheists who are Artists, Ex-Adventists and Seventh-day Atheists, Women Atheists, Female Atheists, and possibly Feminist Atheists. After you've searched for stuff that interests you in "Groups" above and in the "Forums", don't forget to look at recent activity which hides along the right margin of the page all the way at the bottom.
- At 8:50am on May 1, 2012,
Brent Feeney said… Welcome aboard! =) Hope all is well with you today...
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