Politics, Economics, and Religion

Religion has so many connections to political and economic beliefs, there needs to be a place to identify linkages, problems, goals, options, action plans and evaluation criteria.  

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  • Joan Denoo

    Do I need to clarify that the kids don't eat the worms, it is the fruits, vegetables and herbs?

  • Joan Denoo

    Loren, as usual your words holds so much truth. I suspect I don't need to be as angry as I have been because I feel the bindings are now gone. Even though the issue is serious, it doesn't have to be grim. I read some history on J.D. Rockefeller this morning and realized how much his beliefs paralleled Romney's; we know how awful that turned out. Gaining great wealth on the backs of people who worked for them, and yet many citizens do not vote in their best interests. I am really interested to see how this election turns out. I have this silly vision of human beings bent into pretzels trying to make it in this Alice-In-Wonderland-world. I wonder if this generation of people-pretzels have to die off before we get our country back?

    Hope your Sunday is relaxing and fun. 

  • sk8eycat

    Joan, that's delightful, in a snarky kind of way.  And it's all true!

    One thing that was omitted was the female pelvis; in order for us to be able to walk upright (sort of), the pelvic opening for the birth canal is too narrow for our offspring to be delivered fully formed and able to walk the way other mammals' younglings are.  Thus the prolonged childhood and adolescence, and dependence on parents.

    Of course, I think it would be ghastly to have to carry a fetus to toddler-size! 

  • Sentient Biped

    Joan, to read your clarification then read the line "A little dust off, a splash in a pan of water and then to their mouths; their eyes sparkle with delight. "  That is so funny!

  • Joan Denoo

    Daniel, my paragraph didn't read very clearly, did it! I had the same reaction when I re-read it as you. 

  • Joan Denoo

    Tax Avoidance, Government Dependency, And Romney’s Boca Raton Host

    I don't have any idea how to have the power to overcome these business practices, except boycott. If I voluntarily go on an austerity plan, know exactly how and who benefits by my spending dollars and then boycott them, I would at least fee

    l better about myself. The benefit is a simpler life style. Get off the consumption merry-go-round and stop feeding the beasts. Want to join in the endeavor? Where to start? Cut up credit cards, know product sources, buy locally from producers of goods and services? Anything else you can think of and share?
  • sk8eycat

    Is there a web site that lists who owns what?  Like the Koch brothers have their dirty little fingers in a lot of different industries and products.  I buy supermarket generic products as much as possible, but I have NO idea who actually makes things like generic brand TP...or who owns Safeway, for that matter.

    I sold my car, so I'm not buying oil and gasoline, but I use natural gas to cook (as little as possible - I "nuke" what I can)...and electricity.  Don't know where that comes from.

    Back in the 1960s & '70s, one of my favorite writers was trying to "go green" before that became hip.  He was so proud of all his wood-burning heaters and stoves.  THEN he learned that individual householders burning wood (or coal) pollutes the air more than whatever it is giant utilities do to generate electricity.

    We try, but we can't win.  And as you said, most product boycotts don't make a dent in some fat cat's profits.

  • Joan Denoo

    Koch Brother's Wealth 1999-2011

    I wonder how many of their workers lost their jobs? 

  • sk8eycat

    I wonder if anybody would sincerely mourn if the KKKoch brothers died.

  • AgeOfAtheists14

    ~

  • Joan Denoo

    The Blacklisting of Progressive Economics

    David Sirota, FEBRUARY 3, 2009

    "willful ignorance, ... in what has been one long narrative arc whereby economic progressives have been deliberately shut out of top administration jobs. Just step back and think about it for a minute: Eminently qualified and well-respected progressives advisors to Obama during campaign: James Galbraith, Joseph Stiglitz, Dean Baker, Robert Reich, Paul Krugman and Larry Mishel."

    Obama chose "Rubin sycophants like Larry Summers and Tim Geithner to run the economy - the same Larry Summers who pushed the repeal of the Glass-Steagal Act, the same Geithner who masterminded the kleptocratic bank bailout, the same duo whose claim to fame is their personal connections to Rubin, a disgraced Citigroup executive at the center of the current meltdown. And the list of Rubin sycophants keeps getting longer, from Peter Orszag to Jason Furman."

  • Joan Denoo

    Atheist Mutant, your video shows a fascinating building process that may very well be an effective and efficient way to build housing for low income people and for earthquake zones. I am impressed with the domed structures. I really like the concept. Do you know where these houses/buildings are in present use? I'll have to make a search.  Thanks for the very good lead. 

  • Joan Denoo

    Atheist Mutant, I notice you are from Akiak, Alaska. I have not been in that part of the state, but from Google Earth, it looks like it is flat with a meandering river, many ox-bow lakes and many lakes. I assume it is part of the low land of gravelly soil on the watershed of the Yukon River to Bristol Bay. You must have an interesting story to tell. 

  • Joan Denoo

    Mr President Barack Obama: 

    I like your words and vision and the way you understand working citizens and struggles to get ahead, even as they fall back in ability to earn a living wage, even with two members of a household working. 

    When You were elected, I cried with joy, just as the others in the crowd cried. I believed we were going to get out of the terrible hole we were going into. Then you announced your team and I knew I was deceived. You brought in Alan Greenspan, Ben Bernanke, Rahm Emanuel, Pete Peterson, Henry Paulson, Franklin Delano Raines, Jim Johnson, Larry Summers, Tim Geithner, Robert Rubin, and others who were all from the banking industry, all had reputations as favoring owners of property over owners of labor. 

    You lost the ones that I thought were doing you good service: Van Jones and Samantha Power as well as James Galbraith, Joseph Stiglitz, Dean Baker, Robert Reich, Larry Mishel. I don't know if you ever considered Steve Keen, Chris Martenson, or other eminently qualified and well-respected progressive advisors. Not one representative of advisors interested in workers and their challenges. 

    You betrayed me, Mr. President. I won't vote for that scoundrel opposing you, but I will not be fooled a second time. 

    Joan Denoo

  • Ruth Anthony-Gardner

    You're all so serious. How about a laugh.

  • Ruth Anthony-Gardner

    See which states have the most people who don't pay taxes (Red). Guess they're the 47% homeland.

  • Joan Denoo

    Wolff on the Charlie Rose Show - Richard D Wolff

    The bad news, we have many challenges coming. The good news is, we know it, we can recognize some creative thinking about some actions that we need to take and time to start. If I/we are wrong about economy depression, climate change, and overpopulation, we will lose nothing by taking precautions. If I/we are right, we will come through the storm, a little tattered, maybe, and we will not only survive, we will flourish. 
    So, to paraphrase Ruth, let's have some fun while doing it. 

  • Joan Denoo

    Membership to this Discussion went from 38 yesterday to 57 today. I guess the word is getting around. Please, if you find any flaw with any of my reasoning, please explain what and why you disagree. 

  • Joan Denoo

    Goodnight all; good conversations today and hopefully some peace of mind in the midst of so much change. 

    Rest well:

  • Ruth Anthony-Gardner

  • Ruth Anthony-Gardner

  • Ruth Anthony-Gardner

  • Ruth Anthony-Gardner

  • Ruth Anthony-Gardner

  • Ruth Anthony-Gardner

    Comment on bank bailouts.

  • Ruth Anthony-Gardner

  • Ruth Anthony-Gardner

  • Ruth Anthony-Gardner

  • Joan Denoo

    Ruth, these cartoons are real jewels! To the point, don't mince words, and makes one laugh between tears! As usual, you are a genius. 

  • sk8eycat

    I second Joan's comments.  I couldn't have said anything better.

  • Joan Denoo

    Thanks to Ruth Anthony-Gardner 

  • Joan Denoo

  • Joan Denoo

    The Two Major Views About Why Romney is Losing ...

    GOP, “a party that’s been taken over by Tea Partiers, nativists, social Darwinists, homophobes, right-wing evangelicals, and a few rich people whose only interest is to become even wealthier.

    “Romney’s failing isn’t that he’s a bad candidate. To the contrary, he’s giving this GOP exactly what it wants in a candidate. And that’s exactly the problem for Romney — as it is for every other Republican candidate — because what the GOP wants is not at all what the rest of America wants.”

    ~ Robert Reich 

  • Joan Denoo

    Science Bulletins: Learning from Lyme

    We can hope or wish or pray, but to find out why so many children have juvenile arthritis we need science. By looking, paying attention, conducting studies we find what causes the disease, how and why. Then we can develop strategies to decrease the risk of children contacting carriers.

  • Ruth Anthony-Gardner

    Horray! As a Pennsylvanian I celebrate the judicial decision that the voter suppression law here will not take effect here for this election.

    Pennsylvania Judge Blocks Voter-ID Law

    (The "view interactive" state by state breakdown map didn't work for me.)

  • Joan Denoo

    A fellow asked me some questions and here are my answers:
    "Who are you?" I am I.
    "Why are you here?" To participate in life.
    "Where are you going to?" I shall dance in star dust, just as you.
    "You have nothing to navigate by," I have stars, constellations, electromagnetism, forces of nature.
    "because it's all relative to you being the center of the Universe," I am not the center of the universe, I exist in the universe with all that implies. I am part of it all, I exist, not superior to or inferior to anybody or anything, we are all passengers on planet Earth and it is one wondrous ride.

  • Joan Denoo

    Faith is the surrender of the mind

    Isn't the religious imperative to surrender, yield, obey, let go-let god, turn the other cheek, crucify yourself in imitation of the crucified christ?

    No wonder grown-up problems don't get solved, unresolved conflicts don't get resolved.

  • sk8eycat

    Joan, my late friend, Judith Hayes, wrote something about the  story of Jesus having to carry his own cross to the execution site (which is silly for many reasons, mainly because the Romans built the crosses ON site), and the exhortation to new Christians to "take up your cross, and follow Christ."  Plus the morbid Catholic ritual of the Stations of the Cross.

    She asked, "What if he had refused to carry the cross?"  "You wanna crucify me?  Fine.  YOU carry the cross."

    Imagine...

  • Loren Miller

    I am I, indeed.

    Fuck with me at your peril, because I will FUCK BACK, and I will not be pleasant about it.

  • Joan Denoo

    Timeline for the Crusades and Christian Holy War to c.1350

    Is it not interesting that when we discuss religion, discussions of pain, torture, domination, and so much hate whether on the part of those who crucify christians, to those christians who burned, drowned, cut off noses, invaded in the countless Inquisitions. Underlaying all this blood and guts was control, power, greed, egos thinly veiled as devotion to their gods. They believe they are entitled to land, people, treasure and have the right to dominate any who got in their way. 

    I don't find stuff like that when I read about agnostics, anti-theists, atheists, Brights, freethinkers, humanists, secular humanists, skeptics, or spiritual humanists. Have you ever read or heard of violent supporters of these beliefs? A lot of them suffer at the hands of theists ... and non-believers certainly have been called all kinds of vile things. 

    Maybe we are just too lazy, or disinterested in such values. As for myself, getting up in the morning offers me opportunities beyond imagination, and I go to bed at night satisfied with my day. Perhaps I just have it too easy and don't know those who have a more difficult life than I. I do know I laugh when I think how ridiculous all these theists sound when they prattle.  Perhaps Ihould wear a mask to hide my disdain. 

    In the meantime, I had an absolutely delicious bowl of clam chowder today. 

  • sk8eycat

    Greg, I have a problem with that reference about Romans and crucifixion.  the author treats Jesus and Peter as actual people, and their crucifictions as historical events.  There is NO evidence for either.

    Yes, the Romans crucified rebellious slaves, pirates, and others.  But there's no historical evidence for those two characters, and Saul/Paul who was the first person to write about Jesus never claimed that he lived and died anywhere on this planet.

    I still wonder what would have happened if somebody who was ordered to carry his (or her) own crossbar said, "Up yours!  I'm not carrying that thing!" And stuck to it.  They may have flogged him mercilessly or run him through with a sword, but that would have either given him a quicker death, or left him too weak to carry anything.

    Long before the Romans took over Judea, they would break a crucified person's legs as an act of "mercy," so they would die faster.

  • Joan Denoo

    "Are Christians Delusional?" Richard Carrier Skepticon 3

    Richard Carrier author of "Sense and Goodness without God", "Proving History", and "Not the Impossible Faith". A Ph.D. in ancient history from Columbia University, he specializes in the modern philosophy of naturalism, the origins of Christianity, and the intellectual history of Greece and Rome, and ancient philosophy, science and technology.

  • Plinius

    I don't find stuff like that when I read about agnostics, anti-theists, atheists, Brights, freethinkers, humanists, secular humanists, skeptics, or spiritual humanists. Have you ever read or heard of violent supporters of these beliefs? A lot of them suffer at the hands of theists ... and non-believers certainly have been called all kinds of vile things.

    And can I defend myself without descending to their level? I think that everybody has got a right to his/her own opinion, own body, own way to live or die - and those rights should only be restricted where they violate other's rights. I wouldn't know how to talk to theists, or how to influence them. I tried with my fundie parents, when they lived, but anything beyond "Would you have some more tea?" was spoken in a language they couldn't understand.

  • sk8eycat

    Greg.  Oh.  I getcha.

    Most of what I know about Roman methods of trials and punishments comes from reading Colleen Mc Cullough's "Masters of Rome" series.  I know that's fiction, but it's very well-researched (13 years before she started the 1st book!), so I believe she's accurate.  The only problem is that the novels only cover the last 100+ years of the Republic (and what ruined it...Cato and other hyper-coonservatives, and growth.), and Romans of that time had a horror of capital punishment.  The most extreme penalty (in Rome itself) was to throw the guilty party off the Tarpeian Rock.  Otherwise they were usually exiled.

    A private citizen had the right to crucify one of his/her slaves.  Julius Caesar crucified 50 or 60 pirates who had captured him for ransom when he was in his early 20s.  And then there was the Spartacus-led revolt and its gruesome aftermath.

    But during the time of the Republic, capital punishment of any kiind was rare.  I don't really know much about the empire.

  • Ruth Anthony-Gardner

  • Tony Carroll

     Think Progress Comments for TPR.

    Court Requires Disabled Rape Victim To Prove She Resisted, Calls For Evidence Of ‘Biting, Kicking, Scratching’

     
  • Joan Denoo

    Tony, this is terrible news! If courts don't know the word "NO" then why should a rapist? Besides, many counselors advise women to do what they believe will be safest for them, and if not resisting means less trauma, then that is what a woman should do. It is better to be raped and alive than raped and dead. Just common sense. 
    If the judge were walking down a street and some thug held him up for his watch, rings, and wallet, should he resist? Or should he acquiesce and deal with remembering the face and features of the thug? 

  • Joan Denoo

    Furthermore, This is so terribly outrageously ignorant of not one, but four judges who overturned the conviction of a rapist! Absurd! I wonder, if any one of those judges had a daughter with cerebral palsy and mental capacity of three years, would their sense of justice have been different? 
    I don't think this is a right or left issue! Justice, fairness, accountability weigh heavy on the minds and hearts of the liberals I know. So, we don't think the state should put citizens to death, we do think the state should hold people accountable and responsible for harming others and indeed, the state should provide protections for those who are unable to protect themselves.

  • Tony Carroll

    Joan you're right. This isn't a right/left issue. This is a fairness issue. Small excert from the article;

    In a 4-3 ruling Tuesday afternoon, the Connecticut State Supreme Court overturned the sexual assault conviction of a man who had sex with a woman who “has severe cerebral palsy, has the intellectual functional equivalent of a 3-year-old and cannot verbally communicate.” The Court held that, because Connecticut statutes define physical incapacity for the purpose of sexual assault as “unconscious or for any other reason. . . physically unable to communicate unwillingness to an act,” the defendant could not be convicted if there was any chance that the victim could have communicated her lack of consent. Since the victim in this case was capable of “biting, kicking, scratching, screeching, groaning or gesturing,” the Court ruled that that victim could have communicated lack of consent despite her serious mental deficiencies:

    WTF!! Pardon me, but mental capacity of a 3 y.o. with CP, and further in the article, find out she is confined to a wheelchair! Gimme an effing break.

  • Plinius

    This is really disgusting - if the justice system won't protect the weak there's nothing left. You might as well overturn your Supreme Court.