Comment

Comment by Joan Denoo on September 19, 2012 at 11:25am

Greg, you give me bone to chew on when you wrote, "Occupy Wall ST was, to me, a better place for the 'in you face' aspects of interaction for (peaceful) change."
Will people who should read and hear the strident voice go to "Occupy"?Thanks for calling this option to my attention. 

Comment by Joan Denoo on September 19, 2012 at 11:17am

Richard Wolff - The Call For a New Capitalism

Wolff describes how our economic system developed, how it changed over time, and defines Booms and Busts. Capitalism creates great wealth and great poverty. Some don't wan't to recognize this but denying and deluding oneself does not change what is real. 

Comment by Greg LeGore on September 19, 2012 at 5:04am

@Joan:  Thank you for sharing 'Shafts of light." Beautiful.

Comment by Greg LeGore on September 19, 2012 at 5:02am

Joan, thank you - and I too highly value your responses - and your most recent ones to Robert illustrate why.  You rightly note that Robert and other xians make unsupported, dogmatic claims (e.g., the age of the Earth) and also put the onus back upon Robert to substantiate them or they will rightly be discredited and ignored.  Your comment to him about the awful, extraordinarily damaging effects of these dogmas is, in my mind, more helpful in showing us ways to assess the situation, to learn and adjust, etc.  And that's what such a forum should do, in my thinking.  As always, thank you so much!!

Each of us who is white, and esp. white male as am I, should live overseas for a year or two, esp. if there is any political violence which makes each day uncertain.  Only they will we begin to understand the situation in which blacks, hispanics, women, and other less-favored groups are immersed.  And only then can we realize that MLK day is for we privileged ones to use such moments for reflection and then action to right these awful wrongs, which impose such horrific costs upon individuals, families, communities and actually all of us (no human is an Island, updating an old favorite) so that we can become the nation promised over 200 years ago.

Also, completely agree that there is a time and place for energetic and unrelenting opposition to injustice - not sure a discussion forum is that place.  Occupy Wall ST was, to me, a better place for the 'in you face' aspects of interaction for (peaceful) change.  MLK and Ghandi were better than us (or at least me), able to remain peaceful and composed even if the face of threats and harm, thereby showing (as did your quotes) the hypocrisy of their opponents.  I am in awe of and thankful for their calmness and courage.

Comment by Joan Denoo on September 19, 2012 at 3:04am

Shafts of light

Comment by Joan Denoo on September 19, 2012 at 2:50am

GRATITUDE

I close down this evening with a beautiful piece of moving art with the theme of gratitude. I am so very grateful for each of you who have taken this torturous path of ideas and options and choices with me. We haven't changed the world, but perhaps we could hear each other, recognize our differences and respect each other and all that you bring to the discussion. 

Good night. 

Comment by Joan Denoo on September 19, 2012 at 2:33am

Chris, I imagine you had to learn some coping strategies very young to compensate for feelings about your parents. With your recent vision of a preferred future for you and your husband, you reveal it is possible to rise above the wounds and scars of growing up. 

Now, the next step, it seems to me, is to find little and big ways that bring you joy.  You inspire me!

Comment by Joan Denoo on September 19, 2012 at 2:18am

sk8eycat, your story and countless other women have been faced with their own version of that same challenge. They thoughtfully searched for options and explored ramifications for each option, coming to different conclusion, but the process continues. Faced with reality, most women think and feel their way to a solution that makes the most sense to them. I respect your journey. 

Comment by Joan Denoo on September 19, 2012 at 2:08am

Greg, I like what you said because I know it is true, people turn away from strident voices, whether in volume or ALL CAPS. You have always been a strong supporter of my efforts to increase public awareness of serious issues. 

That said, being calm, reasonable, gentle all need to happen, but for those of us who have walked the path out of sick thinking and trying to flourish as fully human, we noisy ones have a place in struggles for human rights.
Martin Luther King, Jr. had a soft voice that stressed peace, but behind him were the more militant one who revealed the numbers and intensity of anger and who demanded justice. 

Gandhi spoke in soft tones and temperament, but behind him were hundreds, if not thousands, of rebellious, angry crowds demanding to be heard. 

If people who suffer under the yoke of oppression and domination ask for permission to speak, or seek approval in what they say, nothing changes. How long did slavery last in this country? and racial discrimination? and how long have women had to struggle with bearing children and trying to figure out how to feed, house, and clothe them. 

Not all men are bad and irresponsible, thankfully; but all conceived children have a father, whether he intended to be a father or not. 

Greg, I just want to be sure you realize how helpful you have been for me over the months, maybe years, and I appreciate you greatly. 

Comment by Joan Denoo on September 19, 2012 at 1:33am

Yes, Robert, I am intolerant of intolerable beliefs. No reason for me to dodge that bullet. You probably haven't read some of my earlier stuff, but let me give you just one example. After working with battered children and women, and hearing the stories of hundreds through various jobs, I began to hear a theme: "yield, pray, obey, turn the other cheek, love him to the lord, crucify yourself daily in imitation of the crucified christ and rejoice in your crucifixion." I call that the "Passive Gospel". Faced with challenges of family violence, many women and children have turned to the church community for help and the most common theme they hear is the Passive Gospel. It is sick, dysfunctional, harmful and leaves scars far too deep to understand how seriously they have been hurt until experiencing a lot of pain, guilt, shame and anguish. Why not just stop it at the source and call those dreadful words stupid, ignorant, and unnecessarily harmful. 

Do ALL religious believe such silly nonsense? I don't know, I don't hear anyone objecting to them even when they come from the pulpit and lectern. 

One nice thing about having a reputation of an angry old woman, I don't have to play games or pretend to be something that I am not. 

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