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Winning Arguments!

Practice your skills to win religious debates using information, persuasion, logic, and reason!

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Comment by A3Kr0n on June 2, 2011 at 12:04am
So who's winning here tonight? (to paraphrase Charlie Sheen). Has anybody been to the "slap down" at the Christian Watershed, and Joel's comment about PZ Myers? I read a couple of other posts Joel made, and I need a play book. I'm not looking to start a rant with him though. He might be a "hopeless". Maybe I just need one of those strings people use when spelunking to find my way back out.
Comment by Joseph P on May 31, 2011 at 3:03pm
Well, we already knew that.  :-D  What we're trying to do is explain why to the hopelessly brainwashed.
Comment by Joseph P on May 31, 2011 at 10:02am
That's one possible definition for a complex moral system, yeah, but there are far simpler.
Comment by Joseph P on May 31, 2011 at 9:32am
It's all of the little things that pack species share.  It's the sense of fairness, the desire to assist others, often as a sort of reciprocal arrangement.  The moral sense that humans have is just a memetically evolved version of that.
Comment by Joseph P on May 31, 2011 at 9:11am

There are points to be made about the cats killing things for the hell of it.

 

First off, cats are not truly social animals.  The closest example I can think of, in the wild, is lions.  That's not even a real pack group, just a harem group.  If a new male defeats the old one and takes over the harem, the new one kills the cubs of the old male.  They don't have the same sort of pack mentality as ... say, dogs, dolphins, other whales, and most primates.

 

Then there's the fact that morality only really applies to group members.  Wolves have morality that applies to their pack, but they're predators.  Small animals and even larger prey animals are free for the killing.  That's what wolves do.

 

Some of the same will carry through to dogs.  They may kill a small animal, just for the hell of it, because of latent hunting instincts.  But any animal within their pack is treated fairly, most of the time.  Sometimes they'll try to get away with things, though.  Some people are just jerks.  It makes sense that the same would hold true for animals.

Comment by Antonio Chambers on May 30, 2011 at 10:48pm
Animals exhibit "moral" values and attitudes all the time. One example is the fact that NO animal (that I know of) kills for the sake of killing. Furthermore, animals that kill for food as their needs be. They kill only what is needed for themselves and the herd.
Comment by Joseph P on May 30, 2011 at 10:13pm
Possible Antonio, yeah.  Dolphins and one or two other species are about as bright as we are.
Comment by Joseph P on May 30, 2011 at 10:08pm
Ohhhhhhh, Christ.  Yeah, I know William Lane Craig, but I've never ready any of his books.  I've only ever heard various atheists refer to him.  I'll have to pull up a debate of his sometime.
Comment by Antonio Chambers on May 30, 2011 at 10:06pm
yes Joseph and besides, humans are the most immoral of all species.lol. In my opinion. I guess animals have some religion they use to justify their morality XD
Comment by Joseph P on May 30, 2011 at 10:04pm
Yup, Antonio.  Behavioral biologists have done huge amounts of research into the subject.  Any social species has innate concepts of empathy, fairness, and basic morality.  It's built into the genes.  We're not special.
 

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