Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jo Jerome on January 7, 2010 at 9:28pm

It's part of the double-speak and circular (non)logic I hear from otherwise intelligent people who try and defend their faith.

Them: "Blah, blah, blah."

Me: "And how do you know that's true?"

Them: "Because it's in the bible."

Me: "So you believe that clouds are not water vapor but God's dusty footprints on Heaven's floor? Because that's in the bible too."

Them: "Well obviously that's just metaphor."

Me: "So not everything in the bible is literally true?"

Them: "No. Not everything."

Me: "So how do you know blah, blah, blah is true?"

Them: "Because it's in the bible."

Me: *Facepalm*

Permalink Reply by Jo Jerome on January 7, 2010 at 9:37pm

Although, I did hear once from an otherwise-educated evangelical a rather crafty explanation of the two conflicting genealogies of Jesus in the NT: He said that sometimes in Jewish tradition, they'd skip names. "Grandfather begat you." Therefore, all the names in both genealogies are correct.

I haven't heard this anywhere else, but it actually does sound plausible. Or a plausible-sounding but crafty invention to get around that particular contradiction.

One contradiction down. A few hundred more to go.

Permalink Reply by D.O.S on January 8, 2010 at 10:43am

I don't see how that would be plausible in terms of historical research. There is nothing verifiable and his explanation would make an already impossible task that much harder. The NT genealogies are based on? Old Testament? Which is based on? They do come up with interesting ways to subvert the real questions at hand and finding ways around legitimate scholarship. But I could do the same in an attempt to "prove" Leprechauns are real and base it on "historical" research.

I've heard other strange theories about the geneologies regarding variations in spelling. None of them reallly pan out. It's the same principle they try to use in justifying the "Bible Code."

Permalink Reply by Jo Jerome on January 9, 2010 at 9:07pm

I call it 'plausible' in how oral histories and myths get passed down. Names commonly get lost for a number of reasons. Grandfather and grandson are famous in the community but father is not. Or father was outcast/an embarrassment somehow and we'd rather forget him. Or you have John I, John II and John III, who, in the passing of time, all get lumped together as one guy named 'John.'

"Plausible"

I've never heard of this being an official, recognized, deliberate practice of the region. As compared to, say, attributing authorship of the sermon or gospel you just wrote to a now-dead mentor. Or plagiarizing a common story or myth and simply attaching your guy's name and your own spin to it.

If anything, knowing how names are commonly skipped gives the story less credibility in my opinion, not more, as these are also methods that go hand-in-hand with embellishing the whole story to begin with.

But to a layman's ears, it's an explanation that sounds good and most conveniently can't be verified one way or another. Hence my comment that even if I give the person that explanation, that's one of hundreds of contradictions.

Permalink Reply by D.O.S on January 10, 2010 at 8:09am

Oral histories are dicey that way. I like oral history but tend not to view that as actual history unless there are separate verifiable sources that confirm at least the basic content of said "history." I think my misunderstanding was one of semantics. I deem something plausible if it is at least possible to verify historically. Which virtually eliminates the whole bible for legitimate historical research, with just a few minor exceptions.

:)

Permalink Reply by Craigart14 on May 16, 2013 at 11:46pm

Old thread, but what the heck.  The genealogies are different, I think, because they are inventions by different authors.  Matthew traces the family line only back to Abraham, while Luke goes all the way back to Adam.  Since both go through  Joseph, who wasn't J's father anyway, both are bogus.  I doubt that either one has anything to do with oral history, and in twenty years of study, I've never heard of this name skipping "tradition."  The "mysteries" of the Bible go away when we think of it as literature arising primarily out of folklore and oral tradition, with occasional--though often garbled--historical and/or geographical correspondences.  There was a city called Jericho, for example, but it didn't have walls in the time of Joshua, though it did when King Josiah's priests renovated the Temple and revised the OT, very likely writing Deuteronomy at the same time.  Of course, Peter Pan begins in London, but that doesn't make Neverland real.

Permalink Reply by Erik Weissengruber on October 3, 2011 at 9:42am

I would also like to find a good source that addresses the theopolitical propaganda in the Old Testament. What was the relationship between a temple complex in Jerusalem, royal dynasties, and the changing religious beliefs of those power centres and the population they governed.

Permalink Reply by William Matis on May 31, 2013 at 1:56am

I don't think it's so much that they're taking the texts at face value, more they are trying to figure out what are the actual teachings of Jesus and what were later additions. Many argue that Jesus was real and there's a historical core to the texts, but that's about it. What can we really know about the historical Jesus from the texts? That's the question.  

Permalink Reply by Debra Stevenson on May 31, 2013 at 2:09am

William,

 

Hey there again. It's Brandi Williams who goes by the name Debra Stevenson after my dear cousin who I am staying with along with my husband for a while. Maybe till the end of the summer. I haven't seen her in so long.  Anyways, about the Yeshua question.  I think there was a Yeshua but Jesus the Christ is mostly fictional.  There is some history in the Jewish and Christian bible's but it largely seems to be surrounded by mythology and legend.  I think we can get an idea of what the historical Yeshua might have been like through studying Jewish history in 1st century Palestine.

 

He was most likely an apocalyptic rabbi who was one of many Jews upset with the way the High Priests of the Temple were running things and decided to revolt by preaching beliefs that would be seen as 'heretical' by alot of Jews, he would have been tried by the Jewish authorities for being a 'false teacher', handed over to the Roman occupying forces who also would have tried him for being a rabble rouser, nailed to a wooden stake as punishment.  He also would have been raised as a fanatical sort of Jewi and ordained into the rabbinate after learning the accepted Jewish interpretation of the texts the Hebrews used from whatever branch of Judaism he was from.  What do you think?

 

Brandi Amari Williams

Permalink Reply by Craigart14 on Friday

I don't doubt that there was an actual rabbi named Yeshua who may be the source of an oral tradition around which a new sect of Judaism coalesced in the first century, but there is very little about him to be found outside the Biblical canon and/or non-canonical Jewish and early Christian writings.  Of course, illiteracy rates were at about 95% in the ancient Roman Empire, very little in way of education, and no mass media, not even print.  Most people were ignorant and superstitious, believing in magic, visions, mysticism, etc.  They probably would have had little trouble believing in miracle cures, the raising of the dead, turning staffs into snakes, flying, etc., and most of their information would have come from oral communications, perhaps little more than rumor.  It's always puzzled me, for example, not that Jews believed that Moses could turn his staff into a snake, but also that the Pharaoh's magicians could do the same.  That Simon Magus (Acts of the Apostles) could fly.  There were eight or nine people resurrected  in the Bible, and hundreds that supposedly climbed out of their graves and wandered the streets of Jerusalem at the moment of Jesus' death.

Was there a real Jesus?  I don't know.  Did he do the things his followers, the gospel writers that never even met him, later claimed he did?  Of course not.  Such things are impossible.

Craig