Comment

Comment by Loren Miller on September 18, 2012 at 5:16pm

Robert, from the outset, I said that you were entitled to your views and practice them as you see fit, just as I have mine.  I don't presume to tell someone else that they have to run their life according to my rulebook.  I don't have that right.  Neither do you.

Comment by Robert Brown on September 18, 2012 at 5:01pm

One other thing for Loren and even booklover

I thought I should include the definition of a bigot here.  I do have strong opinions, but it seems that my views are more flexible than are yours.

Bing Dictionary

intolerant person: somebody with strong opinions, especially on politics, religion, or ethnicity, who refuses to accept different views

 

Merriam-Webster

a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially: one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

Comment by sk8eycat on September 18, 2012 at 4:54pm

Loren, this quote came to mind while I was reading posts in here.

Pardon him, Theodotus, he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature. -- George Bernard Shaw

Comment by Robert Brown on September 18, 2012 at 4:30pm

Been a busy day it looks like.  I actually love true debate like this.  That is why I was so upset with the discussion stopping use of the term bigot and got me originally posting.

Where to begin, I guess first, in my earlier response I stated I believe a baby becomes its own being or individual after its own heart starts beating.  This can be detected around 9 to 10 weeks at the earliest so I think abortion is ok until then, and am even flexible enough to stretch it until actual viability which may be around weeks 20 to 24.  This would give plenty of time in most cases for a woman that was raped or in some other circumstance to end an unwanted pregnancy.

I am not 100 percent anti-abortion and I am not saying it is only for cases of rape or incest.  Any reason until it can be viable on its own is fine for me. 

Joan, your response about what I said regarding Liberals calling conservatives Bigots I didn't quite get.  I think you are equating all religious people being conservative or all conservatives being religious.

All of the burn in hell comments that religious people make to a liberal atheist, they also make to conservative atheists, my point was religious people in my experience are more willing to hearing athieist ideas than liberals are willing to hear conservative ideas.  Time and time again in life I have had liberals literally turn away from me and ignore what I am saying when they hear I am a conservative, or use a comment like you are a bigot to shut down the conversation and disregard ideas on that basis.  A religious person may say I will burn in hell, but I can still say why and then ask them to prove it.  The conversation isn't ended by a burn in hell statement.

I also get more upset when Liberals won't discuss subjects because they are supposed to be open-minded, where as religious people aren't thinking right to begin with.

I know the religious right and left aren't on any of our sides until they get unbrainwashed.

To booklover, I just think it is sad that anyone will say it is ok for a mom to kill her unborn child at 7 months, 8 months, or even the day before the due date.  It may be her choice, but what happened to our humanity to be so cavalier about the awsomness of a woman bringing a new life into the world.  And even with my dislike of death a day before due date, I know there are always circumstances that can't be controlled like auto accidents and cancer's that may make saving the mom necessary.  I am not talking about the exceptions, but the rule. 

And Joan, good for you on adopting a child. I agree that every child should be wanted and in your case an unwanted, unaborted child became wanted and had not only a better life, but a life in itself because of it.

I say give a child a chance to grow up and be a good or bad adult and judge them by their actions in life.  Don't assume because they will have a tough or unwanted childhood that they will be bad or worthless.

  

Comment by sk8eycat on September 18, 2012 at 4:22pm

"Sure you can overturn Roe, even with what should be stare decisis status.  You won't stop abortions, not so long as there is a demand for them."

Thank you, Loren!

I knew by the time I was 13 that I was not fit to raise sane children, and that I never wanted to try.  So, in the summer of 1959 I was 19 years old, pregnant, and 2000 miles from home.  The guy who said he loved me suddenly revealed that he was already engaged and couldn't/wouldn't marry me.  All I could think of was finding a building in Sioux City that was tall enough to jump off of and die. 

Somehow my employer found out, and through connections found an MD who was willing to do a D&C in his office after hours.  Without anaesthesia.  It was expensive (for me... $300...a lot of money in 1959), scary, and painful, but I have never regretted it.  Not even for a minute.

And I would do it again, if I had to.  But I won't, now. 

Hooray for menopause!

Comment by booklover on September 18, 2012 at 3:07pm

Joan, what an apt picture.

Comment by Joan Denoo on September 18, 2012 at 2:59pm

Milt Priggee 

Comment by Joan Denoo on September 18, 2012 at 2:51pm

Robert, You wrote, "With medical technology increasing, a baby or fetus if you prefer has greater and greater viability to survive at an earlier time outside of the womb.  So if it can live outside of the womb, how is it not its own individual with individual rights?"

Have you ever worked with battered children or women, or boys placed in ranches for violent behaviors, or in prisons with men and women who have some incredibly awful stories to tell? I have worked in all these conditions and I am of the opinion that every child born be a wanted child. 

I had five miscarriages before I was able to carry to term. Each death was like a death of a "born" child. I wanted children so badly, we adopted a five day old boy and five-months thirteen-days later our twins were born. For two weeks I had three children under six months and I was in heaven. I was even able to nurse all three. 

What about children born to mothers who don't want them? Are you going to adopt them? Or the State of whatever? or the USA? Who is going to care for them, teach them, confront challenges and have to be resourceful and compassionate, even in the worst of times. 

As I type this in my garden, my eldest son brought me a cold glass of water and chatted for a minute. He is a jewel and I am so glad to have him. He knows and has always known I wanted him, love him, respect him. Had his mother decided to abort him, I would not have him as a loving, caring, attentive son. However, she had the right to make that decision. 

Comment by Joan Denoo on September 18, 2012 at 2:33pm

Robert, you wrote, "When we conservatives disagree with liberals we think you are wrong, but when liberals disagree with conservatives, not only are we wrong, but we are bigoted and many other disparaging names"

Do you have any idea of the responses we get?, "You will burn in eternal fire of damnation", a rather judgmental kind of language. 

Or we hear, "You have no morals or ethics." EXCUSE ME! Such comments come out of pure, unadulterated ignorance. 

Or we hear, "You don't have Jesus, or god, or whatever, on your side!"

DO YOU REALIZE YOU DON'T HAVE THEM ON YOUR SIDE? 

HOWEVER, you are absolutely correct, when I hear, see or think about gods I think of the most objectionable character in all fiction, demanding and arrogant about it, irrelevant, corrupt, revengeful, abusive, ruthless, mass executioner, misogynistic, misanthropic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capricious, malevolent, bully, and thug. 

Comment by booklover on September 18, 2012 at 2:00pm

Robert.  A woman who lives and breathes on her own trumps an embryo that can't. PERIOD.  And since you are not a woman, you don't even need to worry about it.  Someone else's body is NEVER YOUR CHOICE. EVER. EVER. EVER. 

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