So as is appropriate, I am starting a discussion rather than posting comments. I was going to go back and look at the original comment that started all the controversy but it has mysteriously disappeared. I would be curious to know if the author is the one who deleted it. It seems to me that he was not treated with respect from the beginning.

Maybe it is unpopular, but I thought he made valid points. I believe the first was a question about why have biological children rather than adopt. The second was concerning respect for children and treating them like people rather than inferior people. I apologize if my summary is inaccurate as the original post disappeared.

My husband and I chose to have two children of our own rather than adopt. I admit that we made that decision for selfish reasons, but my justification is that we are just replacing ourselves. Which is weak, I admit. I would, however, be open to adoption should I want any more children or perhaps under the right unforeseen circumstances.

I think he made several other good points regarding parenting. I do agree that children can learn to control their emotional reactions. After all, how do adults learn it? Hopefully they begin learning it from their parents when they are toddlers.

Views: 22

Replies to This Discussion

i can't discuss with you if you continue missing the point.
...missing the point.

Keep practicing and you may succeed in making a cogent one.

Maybe this was your point "a person is ultimately responsible for their own life, even a child." remember saying that?
please don't ever adopt or reproduce if this is how you really feel.

I'm out. If you've got something interesting to to say know where to find me, not here obviously.
you don't believe a child has any part in their own development?

1 Adoption is wicked expensive.  Even more than a c-section (if you have insurance)

2 As a woman I wanted to experience childbirth.  With the second there was no affording adoption

 

I don't disagree that a child can control their emotions.  But at WHAT age?  And all the time?  Shit adults can't control their emotions all the time.

 

From what I remember about the original post, it was rude from the get go.  and to expect that no one should respond because we are rational thinkers?  That's just silly.  Rational thinkers are the ones that WILL question. 

a question cannot be rude. what happened was the same as when you ask someone "why do you believe in a god?" and they feign offence so they don't have to think about the question. rationalists do not treat any subject as untouchable, not even if it frightens them.

 

"at what age?" maturity is not measured in years. most people go their entire lives without becoming what i would define as an adult. lifelong belief in fairy tales is proof enough of that. child soldiers reach a very distorted emotional maturity very early. human beings are born with the capacity to make rational decisions. all that's needed is the information the base them on and the encouragement to actually do it. those things are up to the parents, because believe me, i am a statistical anomaly, not many people ever reach an epiphany where they realise they have to change the way they're behaving, much less when they're young enough to do it.

 

lincoln said it best: "in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years"

yes, i deleted it. it was a comment, it wasn't intended to be a discussion. the reaction to it baffles me. i thought this was a page about raising children as sceptics. seems to me this means a fundamentally different approach from that taken by religious people. the last thing i expected was the idea that children are human beings being controversial among "rationalists".

Here's the original post copied from my email:

 

egan thomas penney said:

i don't have kids and never will, but i have a couple comments to make based on my observations:
 
first, how can any rational person with the slightest grasp of the state of the world reproduce biologically instead of adopting?
 
second, it seems to me that people need to start treating kids like human beings, this idea that a child is a totally different being from a person is a major cause of problems in society. i work in a grocery store, and get to see this in action all the time. i put it this way: treat them like people in private and they won't act like animals in public. people assume that kids cannot reason. as a result, they cannot reason.
 
just putting that out there

Well darn it - I tried to edit my reply with a longer response and it got lost. Pooey. No time to rewrite it tonight...but I will try again tomorrow.

yeah, you can see right there the part where i said everyone here was a terrible parent and they should kill all their kids. it's right there, between the lines.

 

that was sarcasm, for those who can't understand that

Most people don't show up on a parenting board, declare that they will never have kids and then go on to question why the rest of us do. Your question does not read like a genuine curiosity but rather like an inditement and people reacted. 

 

A question well-phrased tend not to be rude. To be kind, your initial post was badly phrased and you would not have been seen as a troll had it been better phrased. It seems like we are getting past that and can have a civilized discussion.

 

I am confused about one thing though, you say it wasn't meant to be a discussion if so then what was the point of asking the question? Didn't you want responses?

i expected honest responses because i made the incorrect assumption that this was a website populated by rational people who ask THEMSELVES these questions and might have something of value to say that might improve my understanding of the world. i did not expect an argument of any kind i would need to respond to, much less the level of panic that resulted. i know some people see parenting as a religion (youtube.com/watch?v=xTY_fJXZtcw), but i did not expect it here.

So here's the original comment.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

"i don't have kids and never will, but i have a couple comments to make based on my observations:
 
first, how can any rational person with the slightest grasp of the state of the world reproduce biologically instead of adopting?
 
second, it seems to me that people need to start treating kids like human beings, this idea that a child is a totally different being from a person is a major cause of problems in society. i work in a grocery store, and get to see this in action all the time. i put it this way: treat them like people in private and they won't act like animals in public. people assume that kids cannot reason. as a result, they cannot reason.
 
just putting that out there"

----------------------------------------------------------

As this is a forum mainly for parents, so when you say you don't know how any rational person with the slightest grasp on reality would reproduce biologically, you are clearly implying that most of the people you are speaking to by posting in this group are not rational and do not grasp reality.

At best that is very abrasive and at worst is rude trollishness. Not a good way to start a conversation or connect with people on any level. You can say you weren't starting a conversation but clearly you subscribed to the group to see what people would say and responded promptly.

I didn't think you were a troll, but I usually reserve the term for one that is being false as well as rude, you seemed to me to be genuine. Perhaps some of the others dismissed you a little to quickly but I can hardly blame them for responding to your insults poorly. If you do not mean to insult people you may consider thinking of what your words actually mean to the people you are speaking to. Hope you don't mind the unsolicited advice. And I can promise you, your ideas aren't offensive to anybody, only the seeming lack of respect with which you present them.

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