ORIGINS: UNIVERSE, LIFE, HUMANKIND, AND DARWIN

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ORIGINS: UNIVERSE, LIFE, HUMANKIND, AND DARWIN

We debate origins of the Universe, life, Earth, humans, religion, atheism, using common sense, evolution, cosmology, geology, archaeology, and other sciences, to repel biblical creationism and other religious beliefs.

Location: Oxford University, England
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Latest Activity: 9 hours ago

The portrait is Charles Darwin, age 31, in 1840

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Comment by Marc Draco on January 20, 2009 at 3:24pm
That should clear this up - I am MARC - not MarcUS not MarcO... just plain Marc. Atheist, Liberal, former journo. Generally, I don't believe in anything that defies logic, description or scientific scrutiny; and religion is B/S.
Comment by Marc Draco on January 20, 2009 at 3:02pm
Seriously Alex, why did you infer I was ever upset? Perhaps you have been debating too much with conservatives too much of late?

I've written a whole chapter in my current book about Big Bang, in fact! Looking back, I guess I chose the wording poorly saying "given". Our physical laws came into being at Big Bang (or shortly afterwards). This does not imply a creator just a creation event: which is an entirely different thing.

What we don't know - and so far cannot accurately infer - is what came before Big Bang (assuming anything did!). I have never seen a convincing argument for a creator and rather doubt I ever will. I was demanding to know who created the creator before I hit my teens.

In the same way, we could all be brains in jars - or I might be brain in a jar and all this is provided for my amusement.

I can't find Dr. Meaden's article discussing how we might project back before Big Bang - there might not have even been a before; and even there was, I see no reason to assume that the physical laws existing before the BB event were in any way like our own.
Comment by Alex Donovan on January 20, 2009 at 2:37pm
Marc, seriously, there's no need to get so upset.
It's not an argument for a creator. Glad you see that.
Comment by Marc Draco on January 20, 2009 at 11:47am
Calm down? Whatever made you imagine I wasn't calm? ;-)

How is big bang creating our laws an argument for a designer?

I am aware of the anthropic principal (and the arguments both for and against).
Comment by Alex Donovan on January 20, 2009 at 10:36am
"But before the Big Bang, there were no laws of physics as we understand them; or at least, we can't be sure of any. Space-time as we understand only came into existence at Big Bang. "

Calm down, and I'll try to explain...
What you see as 'laws of physics' are a property of the Universe as it exists now. This is just a variation on the teleological argument. The next logical question is this: "What designed the designer?"

As for the Anthropic Principle, what it states is that no god is necessary to explain the universe: We're here to ask the question, no matter how improbable our existence may be, because circumstances lined up correctly for it to be possible. This doesn't mean that a 'god' did it. It just means that even a blind squirrel gets a nut once in a while.
Comment by Marc Draco on January 20, 2009 at 9:47am
But before the Big Bang, there were no laws of physics as we understand them; or at least, we can't be sure of any. Space-time as we understand only came into existence at Big Bang.
Comment by John on January 20, 2009 at 9:25am
Marco, the "laws of physics" simply are. I wouldn't say they were given to us as much as they are an inevitable result or an inherent function of the universe.

That is a very good argument against a persistent god though. The universe exists now in a state that can be measured and studied to a staggering precision. A god in the current universe is simply not necessary. I agree with you Dr. Meaden, Vic Stenger has a most interesting position on this. I read your link and it is quite interesting.
Comment by Marc Draco on January 20, 2009 at 9:11am
Didn't the Big Bang give us the laws of physics that we know now?
Comment by Dr. Terence Meaden on January 20, 2009 at 9:08am
http://www.atheistnexus.org/group/originsuniverselifehumankindanddarwin/forum/topics/2182797:Topic:110343

You can shift this discussion if you wish to another part of this group's discussion area as prompted by the Big Question, "What happened before the Big Bang?".
Although we can never know, we can try approaching possible answers through applying the known laws of physics. One possibility that I find attractive has been well discussed by Vic Stenger. I wrote a piece about this, and sent it to Vic Stenger for comment (with which he agreed). The URL is
http://www.atheistnexus.org/group/originsuniverselifehumankindanddarwin/forum/topics/2182797:Topic:110343

http://www.atheistnexus.org/group/originsuniverselifehumankindanddarwin/forum/topics/2182797:Topic:110343
Comment by Marcus Tullius Cicero on January 20, 2009 at 8:21am
Strong AP: the laws of physics are biased toward life or, as Dyson is reported to have once said, the universe was aware that we were coming.

Andrei Linde, recently. Brandon Carter, in the 70's. John Polkinghorne, recently. Steven Weinberg, Nobel Laureate. There are others.

When one discusses a theory or paradigm it does not necessarily mean he believes it to be true. It is a thought experiment. Relax, take off the boxing gloves, and join us in the land of cool cogitation.
(:
 

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