ORIGINS: UNIVERSE, LIFE, HUMANKIND, AND DARWIN

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ORIGINS: UNIVERSE, LIFE, HUMANKIND, AND DARWIN

We debate origins of the Universe, life, Earth, humans, religion, atheism, using common sense, evolution, cosmology, geology, archaeology, and other sciences, to repel biblical creationism and other religious beliefs.

Location: Oxford University, England
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The portrait is Charles Darwin, age 31, in 1840

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Comment by Ogden Lafaye on November 30, 2009 at 1:42pm
Julia...as to some galactic influence, other than gravitic, I see the atmosphere as a rather effective material barrier, rather like wrapping a beignet in powdered sugar and whipping cream...as far as particulate matter goes.

Gravitic influences would show up in measurements of distance from the sun and the speeding up or slowing down of our rotational speed.

Now as to aliens...laughter. I understand they have attached a tow rope to our galaxy and the stars we see now are a clever projection (like Photo Shop) to make us think our galaxy isn't moving into their realm. All conjecture of course.

Of course!
Comment by Ogden Lafaye on November 30, 2009 at 12:52am
To julia bauman...thanks, I believe in global warming and have a few insights being an electrical and refrigeration engineer. I taught refrigeration in addition to owning a successful refrigeration repair company.

Years ago our industries built household refrigerators that are still running today. In the post WWII era, a lot of these were junked, running well, but not new or modern. Consumerism.

Ammonia, after over 100 years, is still the least energy consuming refrigerant, albeit dangerous and yet, the most flexible. Other things were tried such as sulfur dioxide and various gases. Any gas works as a refrigerant but pressures, posionous aspects and unsuitable enthalpy curves relegate most of them to experiments. A few, like nitrogen are used in really special applications.

In the early 1920's Dupont was working on cleaning fluids derived from fluorocarbons and came up with R-12 (dichlorodifluoromethane) which proved to be the greatest thing ever invented...better than sliced bread. It revolutionized the food industry and opened up mankind to healthy fresh food storage.

Freon will leak through anything, even a cast iron or steel cylinder not fortified with nickel and chrome. It is tasteless, odorless in concentrations of 28% or less, slightly heavier than air, non-flammable, non-toxic and chemically benign with almost everything although it is slightly hydrophillic and will absorb water to the detriment of the machines it is used in (They install water filters).

The machinery that uses Freon-12 (R-12) must be leak tight and eventually we developed hermetic systems that couldn't leak unless the quality of the materials was low and subject to vibrations. There lies the rub. We built 100's of millions of household refrigerators and freezers and ditto commercial refrigeration boxes and storages, trucks and whatnot. It changed the world. But, we built quality into them, they didn't leak.

Well R-12 became dirt cheap. When I started in the field, R-12 was about $8 for 30 lbs. It is now $699...and virtually illegal.

So, dirt cheap R-12 was not the money maker, reduced quality in the consumer society became the industry norm and FREON leaked into the atmosphere. The manufacturers even sold refrigerators that had a tag informing you that if the machine started failing, simply call them and a repairman would be right out to install more FREON...GE was famous for this. Hell, it was CHEAP.

So, when all the ozone layer business started, we were consuming One Billion, 600 million lbs. of R-12 a year not to mention specialty freons such as R-22, R-502, R-11 and others used in super low temperature applications, cleaning fluids, spray cans and a myriad of multiples of types in cascade systems for hi rises.

All of this was being utilized in low quality, cheap systems, prone to leakage...especially aluminum condensers and evaporators.

Industry was astounded by the squawk of the environmentalists and quickly came to the conclusion to SUPPORT THE ENVIRONMENTALIST because it entailed using another freon and selling all new machinery to EVERYONE. The changeover to "environmentally friendly" (note this term) greons cost us about 2 trillion dollars over the span of the changeover. Millions of machines were relegated to the scrap heaps, some were converted (at a lower output for energy used) and ALL the new machinery had to use 17% more electrical power to get the same effect.

AND THEY STILL LEAK ! ! !

SO, NOW WE HAVE 1 BILLION 600 MILLION LBS OF ANOTHER SUBSTANCE POLLUTING THE ATMOSPHERE and we don't know what IT is going to do.

1 Billion 600 million lbs. of ANYTHING is going to be a pollutant if it is not naturally occurring and NO freons are natural.

The environmental movement is constantly being co-opted and almost always contributes more to the problems.

By the way; a change back to R-12 would be simple and cost little for reasons I will elaborate on if someone asks...but the quality of the machinery would have to be improved dramatically and that means censuring, regulating, inspecting and testing the products of the manufacturers and they will fight that I guarantee you.

Anyone follow and find this interesting?
Comment by Rudy V Kiist on November 29, 2009 at 1:13pm
What I find interesting is people are more concerned about the debatable effects of pollutants on climate change as opposed to the actual poisons themselves that are actually poisoning us and our environment. And if you want actual "proof" of that just go to the rivers and oceans and test them. Or up to the Tar Sands in my province and take a look at the lakes where all the sludge and poisons have "accidentally" been spilled out leaving behind dead lakes and thousands of dead waterfowl as happened earlier this year. And those are the ones that happen to be stumbled upon by 3rd parties.

Although, I do admit, many people here don't have much sympathy towards GW either when we hit our inevitable -40 degrees in winter with minus 50 to 60 wind chill. Although that weather did seem more common when I was a kid and had to walk to school uphill both ways (^_-)
Comment by Marc Draco on November 29, 2009 at 10:46am
GW is part of a chaotic effect that the whole system is engaged in all the time. Some trends we can see, others are more difficult. We're not in a closed system and that makes things tricky for the best scientists.

Trouble is, like evolutionary theory, there are a lot of interested parties who don't want it to be true. Many of the naysayers are fro the right wing, you'll note.

Something is happening but the cause isn't 100% clear - we may (or may not, if you prefer) be having an influence on that.

Climate change (whatever is causing that) is more obvious. Some species are evolving to cope; others (like us) will probably die out as a result. You're right that we won't be here to witness it though.

If was more myself, I'd help you with some example data; I'm sure someone else can.
Comment by Ogden Lafaye on November 29, 2009 at 7:47am
Larry Lawson: You DON'T believe mankind is causing global warming??????

Please clarify/expand.
Comment by Marc Draco on November 29, 2009 at 5:25am
Chains are driven by customers. We're the problem - but they feed off it. Comes full circle, Larry.

GW - no matter what's causing it, it's happening and the climate is off on one. I only have to look out the window this very minute to know that. In fact, I can actually hear it!
Comment by Marc Draco on November 29, 2009 at 5:00am
Welcome Monica.
Comment by Marc Draco on November 29, 2009 at 4:59am
Chain stores are the death of the small retailer and a major cause of global warming: but who cares if they're convenient and cheap?
Comment by Monica Meas on November 29, 2009 at 2:24am
hi all :D
Comment by Wes on November 28, 2009 at 5:49pm
You were kind enough to welcome me to the site, so I figured I'd reciprocate by joining your group.
 

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