ORIGINS: UNIVERSE, LIFE, HUMANKIND, AND DARWIN

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ORIGINS: UNIVERSE, LIFE, HUMANKIND, AND DARWIN

We debate origins of the Universe, life, Earth, humans, religion, atheism, using common sense, evolution, cosmology, geology, archaeology, and other sciences, to repel biblical creationism and other religious beliefs.

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The portrait is Charles Darwin, age 31, in 1840

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Comment by Rudy V Kiist on November 30, 2009 at 6:59pm
Again though, I think we need to stress more what Ogden was talking about, (even the "uneducated" can see that) because you don't get a lot of sympathy for GW up here. The difference between -40 warming up to -38 = still damn cold for us northerners LOL. You must understand, in my country the average temp can be a 5 degree Celsius difference depending on the area, but the environment is exactly the same (plant and animal species) therefore they don't see 2 degrees being a big deal. Most people don't look past their own backyard.
Comment by Rudy V Kiist on November 30, 2009 at 4:40pm
I agree 100% with what you wrote Ogden, but to fair to Larry, none of that had anything to do with climate. Pollution and deforestation, yes. Being a farmer, I witness fellow land owners knocking down trees and plowing up native pasture on a yearly basis, but that's another topic. And I've already mention we have a SEVERE problem with pollution.

As for global warming I'm still waiting for more definitive evidence like Larry. It's the old "tree in the forest" dilemma. Yes we witness things like ice caps breaking off in the Acrtic, but the question remains, did it count if it happened back in the 18th or 19th century when no one was there to record it? In other words many argue due to technology and communication we simply know of and are able to find out about easier.

What scares me is over reaction. I hear scientists suggesting dumping MORE crap in the atmosphere or putting up "shades" to block the sun to counteract GW. No ones going to convince me they know exactly what the results are going to be when we start screwing around with the atmosphere on purpose. Too many variables involved.

Don't get me wrong, when it comes to GW, I also believe it's "better to be safe than sorry", but we can also make things worse if we're not careful.
Comment by Ogden Lafaye on November 30, 2009 at 2:13pm
Well Larry, it is a long foregone conclusion and yes, obvious, obvious to those paying attention to the news and understanding what is being discovered and how it relates back to mankind's polluting.

If you are depending on the earth's ability to absorb this punishment and evidences of changes in the past you might look at the rapidity of these changes as compared to natural events past such as "mini ice ages" long term heat rises and falls into cold periods.

The increased respiratory disease rates are rather dramatic as well as the fact that nose hairs are increasing as evidenced by the rather stunning studies of monkeys in the New York Zoo. I know you may be amused but then some of the data I have personally correlated is wayyyyyyy out there and yet, the "standard" available data is an explanation.

I have watched the changes over 70 years. I can remember when there were trees and pastures, creeks and wild animals in areas of America that are now desolate patches. National Geographic dedicated a number of articles to the phenomena of water loss in various areas of the United States, interviewing "old timers" for corroboration. We just don't seem to notice because to a humna, the chages are so gradual. But to historical change, the changes are extremely rapid in the 20th century to now.

I sailed the oceans most of my life and I assure you, you cannot go ANYWHERE on water anymore without seeing trash in the ocean...there are NO stretches of water without a piece of trash within view 24/7...and I have ventured the 7 seas repeatedly. The Persian Gulf, that enormous body of water has NO shoreline vegetation for miles in, there are no birds in the sky or on the water, no other animals, no evidence of sea life other than the occasional fisherman; now almost a thing of the past. Their harbors have huge areas piled with trash that are not navigable.

Ships at sea use sea water to cool their propulsion machinery and the cleaning of filters is a constant task, oft repeated daily. The birds that used to follow our ships all the way across the oceans (albatrosses) are gone. Few sea birds survive whereas as a young man, they were everywhere. The porposises used to ride our bow wave and we could talk to them and they would heed our whistles, rolling on their backs to see us, keeping up with the shup...very very rare these days and the 100's upon 100's of porposises are now a scant few. Whales were everywhere, no more.

The fishing in my native Louisiana was fantastic as a child but not anymore. Believe it or not there were 1/2+ lb. shrimp in the Mississippi River once...gone, not even recorded. I swam in the river as a child, swimming out to anchored timber ships and getting invited on board for coffee and a tour. Now you are covered with grime and oil, suffer sores and rashes...totally polluted and devoid of life in New Orleans. The Gulf of Mexico once harbored a great shrimp and crab population, now virtually non-existent...the bounty was plentiful, so much so that the beaches had feral cats that fished in the shallow waters and we would go out at night and spear flounder (fish) with the aid of a hurricane lamp, picking up soft shell crabs after ascertaining they were soft with our spears, and hand casting nets into the myriad swarms of shrimp and schooling fish that were EVERYWHERE. You could catch large trout at night with a hook and a sliver of white cotton cloth, dragging this in the well lit water off of piers that had advertising signs. No More...alas.

Our 40 acres in the middle of nowhere USA was once covered with fir trees, a creek and animals. Now we haul water from a spring 300 yards away, cut gnarly stunted scrub oak for firewood and celebrate the hoot of an owl or the sudden flight of a bird. The few scrawny coyotes eat our garbage for want of wild fare (they LIKE beans).

In Los Angeles? Want to get away from the smog and pollution? You now have to drive 150+ miles in ANY direction to escape it.

Look around you Larry: We have loaded the atmosphere, the waters and the land with garbage...what more proof do you want?
Comment by Ogden Lafaye on November 30, 2009 at 1:42pm
Julia...as to some galactic influence, other than gravitic, I see the atmosphere as a rather effective material barrier, rather like wrapping a beignet in powdered sugar and whipping cream...as far as particulate matter goes.

Gravitic influences would show up in measurements of distance from the sun and the speeding up or slowing down of our rotational speed.

Now as to aliens...laughter. I understand they have attached a tow rope to our galaxy and the stars we see now are a clever projection (like Photo Shop) to make us think our galaxy isn't moving into their realm. All conjecture of course.

Of course!
Comment by Ogden Lafaye on November 30, 2009 at 12:52am
To julia bauman...thanks, I believe in global warming and have a few insights being an electrical and refrigeration engineer. I taught refrigeration in addition to owning a successful refrigeration repair company.

Years ago our industries built household refrigerators that are still running today. In the post WWII era, a lot of these were junked, running well, but not new or modern. Consumerism.

Ammonia, after over 100 years, is still the least energy consuming refrigerant, albeit dangerous and yet, the most flexible. Other things were tried such as sulfur dioxide and various gases. Any gas works as a refrigerant but pressures, posionous aspects and unsuitable enthalpy curves relegate most of them to experiments. A few, like nitrogen are used in really special applications.

In the early 1920's Dupont was working on cleaning fluids derived from fluorocarbons and came up with R-12 (dichlorodifluoromethane) which proved to be the greatest thing ever invented...better than sliced bread. It revolutionized the food industry and opened up mankind to healthy fresh food storage.

Freon will leak through anything, even a cast iron or steel cylinder not fortified with nickel and chrome. It is tasteless, odorless in concentrations of 28% or less, slightly heavier than air, non-flammable, non-toxic and chemically benign with almost everything although it is slightly hydrophillic and will absorb water to the detriment of the machines it is used in (They install water filters).

The machinery that uses Freon-12 (R-12) must be leak tight and eventually we developed hermetic systems that couldn't leak unless the quality of the materials was low and subject to vibrations. There lies the rub. We built 100's of millions of household refrigerators and freezers and ditto commercial refrigeration boxes and storages, trucks and whatnot. It changed the world. But, we built quality into them, they didn't leak.

Well R-12 became dirt cheap. When I started in the field, R-12 was about $8 for 30 lbs. It is now $699...and virtually illegal.

So, dirt cheap R-12 was not the money maker, reduced quality in the consumer society became the industry norm and FREON leaked into the atmosphere. The manufacturers even sold refrigerators that had a tag informing you that if the machine started failing, simply call them and a repairman would be right out to install more FREON...GE was famous for this. Hell, it was CHEAP.

So, when all the ozone layer business started, we were consuming One Billion, 600 million lbs. of R-12 a year not to mention specialty freons such as R-22, R-502, R-11 and others used in super low temperature applications, cleaning fluids, spray cans and a myriad of multiples of types in cascade systems for hi rises.

All of this was being utilized in low quality, cheap systems, prone to leakage...especially aluminum condensers and evaporators.

Industry was astounded by the squawk of the environmentalists and quickly came to the conclusion to SUPPORT THE ENVIRONMENTALIST because it entailed using another freon and selling all new machinery to EVERYONE. The changeover to "environmentally friendly" (note this term) greons cost us about 2 trillion dollars over the span of the changeover. Millions of machines were relegated to the scrap heaps, some were converted (at a lower output for energy used) and ALL the new machinery had to use 17% more electrical power to get the same effect.

AND THEY STILL LEAK ! ! !

SO, NOW WE HAVE 1 BILLION 600 MILLION LBS OF ANOTHER SUBSTANCE POLLUTING THE ATMOSPHERE and we don't know what IT is going to do.

1 Billion 600 million lbs. of ANYTHING is going to be a pollutant if it is not naturally occurring and NO freons are natural.

The environmental movement is constantly being co-opted and almost always contributes more to the problems.

By the way; a change back to R-12 would be simple and cost little for reasons I will elaborate on if someone asks...but the quality of the machinery would have to be improved dramatically and that means censuring, regulating, inspecting and testing the products of the manufacturers and they will fight that I guarantee you.

Anyone follow and find this interesting?
Comment by Rudy V Kiist on November 29, 2009 at 1:13pm
What I find interesting is people are more concerned about the debatable effects of pollutants on climate change as opposed to the actual poisons themselves that are actually poisoning us and our environment. And if you want actual "proof" of that just go to the rivers and oceans and test them. Or up to the Tar Sands in my province and take a look at the lakes where all the sludge and poisons have "accidentally" been spilled out leaving behind dead lakes and thousands of dead waterfowl as happened earlier this year. And those are the ones that happen to be stumbled upon by 3rd parties.

Although, I do admit, many people here don't have much sympathy towards GW either when we hit our inevitable -40 degrees in winter with minus 50 to 60 wind chill. Although that weather did seem more common when I was a kid and had to walk to school uphill both ways (^_-)
Comment by Marc Draco on November 29, 2009 at 10:46am
GW is part of a chaotic effect that the whole system is engaged in all the time. Some trends we can see, others are more difficult. We're not in a closed system and that makes things tricky for the best scientists.

Trouble is, like evolutionary theory, there are a lot of interested parties who don't want it to be true. Many of the naysayers are fro the right wing, you'll note.

Something is happening but the cause isn't 100% clear - we may (or may not, if you prefer) be having an influence on that.

Climate change (whatever is causing that) is more obvious. Some species are evolving to cope; others (like us) will probably die out as a result. You're right that we won't be here to witness it though.

If was more myself, I'd help you with some example data; I'm sure someone else can.
Comment by Ogden Lafaye on November 29, 2009 at 7:47am
Larry Lawson: You DON'T believe mankind is causing global warming??????

Please clarify/expand.
Comment by Marc Draco on November 29, 2009 at 5:25am
Chains are driven by customers. We're the problem - but they feed off it. Comes full circle, Larry.

GW - no matter what's causing it, it's happening and the climate is off on one. I only have to look out the window this very minute to know that. In fact, I can actually hear it!
Comment by Marc Draco on November 29, 2009 at 5:00am
Welcome Monica.
 

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