Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Maruli Marulaki on December 31, 2011 at 2:11pm

Most people attribute their own beliefs and actions to reason, while attributing those of others to emotion.

I suspect that people's basic attitudes and choice of beliefs etc. are determined by their individual differences in experiencing dishomeostasis caused by subconscious instincts.   

Breeding is an example:   People with a strong urge to procreate derive their reasons against abortion logically from the premises of the purpose of humans being the survival of their genes.

For the childfree, who are void of the instinctive urge to breed, claiming the right to abortion is also logically derived from their innate preference to avoid breeding and experiencing themselves as individuals and not as bearer of genes.  

A god, who gives live as a gift, is then the logical backup-belief for the breeders.   For non-breeders, a god's demand to breed is one more reason to discard the belief in a god, that denies the own inclinations.  

But the basic difference between the presense or absence of a specific urge is something, that cannot be used to measure what is right for everybody.  

No matter, how much I personally consider it as absurd to raise children, the urge of those, who do so is as real and appropriate for them.    There is basically no right or wrong between people's needs, unless there is harm done to others.   (Letting aside political consideration of the eath's overpopulation.)

Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on December 31, 2011 at 3:15pm

Maruli, I experience you as writing clearly while accurately finding the challenge.  You wrote, "people's basic attitudes and choice of beliefs etc. are determined by their individual differences in experiencing" and when we find the beliefs don't bring healthy relationships, we start looking for answers.  Thinking one is born to breed is one of those beliefs that I created in response to my life-experiences and found it was not the answer.  I learned from my tradition that obedience was necessary for a good life ... and when that turned out to be damaging, I believed I could create a family life that would bring children into a world of love ... that turned out to be a delusion.  So, divorce from parents, husband, family, church, and community seemed to be the way to go.  

That is not the way to go ... we are created as social animals and need tools to develop affirming interpersonal relationships.  These tools are learned, no mystery, no magic, no supernatural events;  just learn skills for personal and interpersonal relationships. 

You wrote, "There is basically no right or wrong between people's needs" (and I would add within an individual's needs) "unless there is harm done to others."

Permalink Reply by Maruli Marulaki on December 31, 2011 at 3:37pm

My focus is not just on experiencing, but on experiencing dishomeostasis, which is then consciously experienced as some attitude.   If someone consciously decides to have children for whatever reason, subconsciously this is an urge of the procreation instinct.

When someone consciously decides to get an abortion for any reason or excuse pretending only to pospone having children, the subconscious instinct is dishomeostasis of the need for self-preservation, while the procreation instinct is absent.  

I think that whatever people believe in, think, value, can be ultimately explained by the subconscious dishomeostasis of any combination of mainly the procreation instinct, sexual instinct, ingroup-outgroup instinct, hierarchy instinct and gregarious instinct.   It can of course be modified by culture, brainwashing and social pressure.  

But I doubt that people would do much, unless there is either some dishomeostasis or a stimulation of the pleasure center of the brain.  

Permalink Reply by Alice on December 31, 2011 at 11:40pm

Maruli - I agree - and think that much more should be made of this in scientific thinking... sometimes I find scientific thinking to be very black and white and presume that a scientist for example can have rational thinking 100% of the time - or so it seems - when listening to educated professors I do find them very self aware of their own limitations...  but there is a trend in conversations on AN to generalisations that lead to black and white thinking....

Permalink Reply by Tom Sarbeck on January 1, 2012 at 4:10am

About black-and-white thinking.

During the 1960s, a California semanticist published a book in which he said black-and-white thinking is a result of stress. I paid attention because I had just quit Catholicism and his words explained to me what I was still experiencing.

He became the president of California State University in San Francisco and was later elected to the U.S. Senate, where he achieved fame for listening to debate with his eyes closed. He insisted that he wasn't sleeping.

His name was Sam Hayakawa and he may have been related to the WW2-era actor of Japanese descent, Sessue Hayakawa.

Permalink Reply by Alice on January 1, 2012 at 5:13am

Tom - interesting - makes a lot of sense - I think we need to see things in a more black and white way in times of stress, in order to make quick decisions that might keep us alive.  But they are not useful for every day use - and yet our every lives these days do have much stress in them, because they are so far removed from the environment we have evolved in for most of our existence as humans - in the last 180,000 years.

EG - I find that I can get into bed quite stressed if I've just watched an action movie.... whereas for generations we went to sleep with nothing more than the stars above our heads to reflect upon.....

Permalink Reply by Maruli Marulaki on January 1, 2012 at 5:34am

Sometimes black and white is only a simplified way of demonstrating a point.  When a trait is distributed along a bell curve, comparing both extremes is not a denial, that most cases are somewhere in the middle.  

Permalink Reply by Kevin C Jenkins on January 1, 2012 at 8:06am

I find it useful to remind myself that most dichotomies are false ones. 

The various dimensions of a person's sexual orientation lie along spectra, making the rainbow an appropriate symbol for anyone that's atypical, or for anyone that supports those who are.  The difference between neurotypical and autistic minds is more like a rheostat than a toggle switch.  Biological evolution is a great model to illustrate it; comparing one generation to the next, the differences are vanishingly insignificant, but the more generations between two points, the more obvious the differences become. 

It's often useful to compare distant points on life's various gradients to illustrate concepts, but we have to remember that lines we draw are going to be arbitrary to some degree.  I'm not arguing for complete postmodern relativism - I do think differences can be compared objectively - it just takes a lot of work to narrow the error bars.  The indication that stress induces more simplistic, 'black & white' thinking may just be a matter of mental fatigue keeping someone from making the effort to do that work. 

Permalink Reply by Alice on January 1, 2012 at 6:43pm

Kevin - true...

Permalink Reply by Alice on December 31, 2011 at 11:36pm

Kevin - we suffer from many personal illusions like this all the time - I do aim to be self aware - but it's tough when we are using the tool that is tricking us - our brains....

Permalink Reply by Kevin C Jenkins on January 1, 2012 at 8:20am

That's what the error-checking tools of science are for.  ☺ 

Permalink Reply by Alice on January 1, 2012 at 6:45pm

Kevin - sure - does this cover it?

What is the ``scientific method''?

  The scientific method is the best way yet discovered for winnowing the truth from lies and delusion. The simple version looks something like this:

• 1. Observe some aspect of the universe.
• 2. Invent a tentative description, called a hypothesis, that is consistent with what you have observed.
• 3. Use the hypothesis to make predictions.
• 4. Test those predictions by experiments or further observations and modify the hypothesis in the light of your results.
• 5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 until there are no discrepancies between theory and experiment and/or observation.

When consistency is obtained the hypothesis becomes a theory and provides a coherent set of propositions which explain a class of phenomena. A theory is then a framework within which observations are explained and predictions are made.

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