Scientists - in Stephen Hawking's Presence - Say Animals are Just as Aware as Humans

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Joseph P on August 27, 2012 at 8:02am

Oh, and welcome to the group.  :-D

These sorts of discussions happen all the time.

Permalink Reply by John Jubinsky on August 27, 2012 at 10:54am

They happen a lot because the underlying dynamic is a debate on altruism vs. non-altruism.

Permalink Reply by John Jubinsky on August 27, 2012 at 10:50am

Scientists can't even agree on what consciousness is.  Claiming animals are conscious is pretty useless at this point.  Let's define the human conscious experience before we claim we are not unique.

 

I am thinking of consciousness as synonymous with a sense of self. Otherwise, computers could be said to be conscious.

Permalink Reply by John Jubinsky on August 27, 2012 at 11:09am

It isn't saying that they are intelligent in the same way nor to the same degree that we are but some demonstrate altruism and there are a lot of humans who appreciate it. For example, there would be a serious backlash if it were decided that unwanted dogs should be ruthlessly drowned in the ocean to save on disposition costs.  

Permalink Reply by John Jubinsky on August 27, 2012 at 11:54am

I suspect that the scientists are only asserting that some animals have a sense of self analogous to that felt by humans and not introducing ethics into the discussion. Notwithstanding, such an assertion invites an ethical discussion on how those animals should be treated less they arbitrarily be treated as no more than computers. The danger in arbitrarily treating them as no more than computers is that it would tend to turn people into sociopaths and no society in recorded history has tolerated sociopaths on a long term basis.  Our society certainly does not tolerate sociopaths. This not to mention the wasted minds of the people that would result from them becoming sociopathic.

Permalink Reply by John Jubinsky on August 27, 2012 at 1:15pm

People in general have supported animal welfare because people in general are humane. However, as undesirable as it is, some people tend to be sociopathic and these are the ones who would be unnecessarily cruel to animals. It is my opinion that some narcissistic people delight in being cruel to even the most adoring animals or at least harbor the desire to be so. I think that the scientists have, no matter how slightly, raised awareness in the general population to the point that arbitrary cruelty to animals is inappropriate.  My opinion is that this is a worthwhile contribution.     

Permalink Reply by Jessica on August 27, 2012 at 11:08am

Hmm good point here as well. The whole thing is confusing to me haha! I guess it is all the proper terminology

Permalink Reply by Joseph P on August 27, 2012 at 11:13am

Yup.  Many people are dismissive and say things like, "Now you're arguing over semantics," as if it's pointless.  The meaning of words is one of the most important things there is, in a discussion.

For one thing, definitional ambiguity is a theist's stock in trade.  You'll find almost no theistic arguments that don't include a grotesque equivocation fallacy.  You have to pin people down to what they mean, when they use a word, then enforce that definition throughout their argument.  The moment they switch definitions, everything after that point is worthless.

Permalink Reply by Jessica on August 27, 2012 at 11:16am

hmm..you could be right here. I am just going off of studies of course and that doesn't say much lol. Was just my point of view :)

Permalink Reply by Madhukar Kulkarni on August 27, 2012 at 12:31pm

I am as much a plant lover as I am animal lover. Notwithstanding their level of consciousness, both are life forms, both are alive and therefore need equal sympathy. Nature has created an interdependence between life forms and our food habbits are the result of this interdependence. Both life forms deserve protection from unnecessary violence.

Permalink Reply by John Jubinsky on August 27, 2012 at 1:22pm

I am a gardener! In this sense I can very much identify with loving plants and I certainly don't unnecessarily trod on any beautiful ones that are not in my garden.

Permalink Reply by sirwolfgang on September 9, 2012 at 7:16pm

IF LOVE IS PRESENT, Case Closed.  You do not have to be aware of it  but LOVE is everything.  Water retains a memory and it , like KARMA  makes attempts to spread LOVE.

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