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Questions... and then some more.

Hello everyone. Thank you for welcoming me to the group.

On Jan. 19 I started a discussion in the "Water Cooler" section of the forum here on atheistnexus.org. There haven't been any responses yet, and although it hasn't been a terribly long time, I thought I would inquire with the members of this group, since I was invited, with some questions.

What's the etiquette around these parts for "bumping" a message if it falls by the wayside? Is this acceptable at all? If so, is 11 days a sufficient enough wait time before one could feel okay commenting on his/her own message in order to bring it back in front of the community's eyes?

Maybe the questions I asked were too personal, uninteresting, or offensive. Maybe you could comment on this.

Here was the body of text:

Title: Emotional magnitude...

Among those of you who have at some point in your lives held religious beliefs to any extent, have you ever found the full acceptance of mortality since to bring with it a stronger emotional response? For instance, do you find the feeling of terror and sadness that accompanies watching a documentary about the holocaust, say, to be exceedingly more harsh since you've become disillusioned? Or do you feel a much greater need to tell your loved ones how much they mean to you? This is something that I'm experiencing, and at times it can be overwhelming. I'm not saying I remember these feelings being weak or short-lived when I was "a believer", but they feel orders of magnitude greater now. I'm curious if I'm not alone. Any comments are welcome.

As my own critic, I shouldn't have worded it in such a way that assumed the reader would have "fully accepted mortality". I'll state here now, though, that when my mind ventures down that extension of logic, I sometimes feel a heavier emotional weight, and that that was all I was trying to convey.

One final thing. Please tell me if this group is not the place for this type of discussion! =)

Anyone's comments on any of this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Park Bierbower on January 30, 2011 at 7:32pm

@Obfuscate

While I'm not terribly active in this group, the subject matter of your thread requires me to invite you to join the group Reforming Counter-Apologetics. Please, look into it and see if it is something that would interest you. I'm sure a post such as yours, worded only a little differently, would garner much more attention.

~Park

Permalink Reply by Tommy on January 30, 2011 at 8:00pm

I can see where some might feel stronger once you come to grips with death being final. I can't believe that I feel a lot different. Saying this I must also tell you I have always taken death harder than others. I was raised in the country in a day where hunting and killing your own food was normal. The older I got, the harder killing anything came for me. My sister sent me a picture of her son with his weekend kill of an eight point buck. They were both so proud and I was feeling terrible for the rest of the day. The death of this deer for the sake of killing is almost more depressing than I can handle. Yeah, right I know you didn't mean animals but I feel the same about a wasted human life. I was raised by religious people in the deep south and it took me until 30 before I fought free of the brain washing given as a young boy. Yet I felt this way much longer about death. Do I fear death for myself more as an atheist? Not so much. I have a slow diseases which will kill me sooner or later and I have given it much thought. I find that I appreciate family more than ever. I spend more time with my kids and grandkid. So what I am saying is my feelings over death has not changed but I do appreciate life more than ever. I hope my rambling answer made sense.

Permalink Reply by obfuscate on January 30, 2011 at 9:13pm

Hi, Tommy.

Any animal's death stirs up sadness for me, as well. Killing for plain sport bothers me much more than killing for survival, though. Growing up in my household, my father was a deer hunter as well. From his accounts, it seemed evident to me that the remorse and sadness one might feel in taking an animal's life for food could be a healthy barrier to overconsumption. Not to mention the skill required to butcher the animal correctly, as well as the fear of wasting the meat if this isn't accomplished. This is touched on in Michael Pollan's "The Omnivore's Dilemma". This might be better reserved for another discussion, only because it will make for an even longer digression. Perhaps we shall continue?

I am sorry to hear about your illness. It seems like you have a zest for life, however, which I think is something to cherish. I myself have Celiac disease and Hypothyroidism.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feelings.

Permalink Reply by If You Shea Show on January 30, 2011 at 8:02pm

:grin: I am not certain that morality (a philisophical or religious concept) has much to do with the subject of 'science' ala the stated goal of this group. Morality is great and all, but (correct me if I am wrong @founder) this is intent to be a discussion of Big Bangs, Dark Matter, and Protoculture. Not … ways and means, not right and wrong, not this and that. But! What, where,why ,and how the fuck! Did … a ball of rock! start spinning! around a sun? that then :!?: produced homo sapiens, homo metropolis, and homo techno :uh: were talkin science ..yo :grin: not personal behavior. @founder, yes/no? :grin:

Permalink Reply by obfuscate on January 30, 2011 at 9:34pm

I'm not sure I see how my questions had anything to do with morality, although I can see how one could consider some of them falling under behavior. I would have to say fields like behavioral biology and ethology certainly are branches of science.

My concern was that the topics weren't focused on the origins of the universe (multiverse, or whatever paradigm is currently most widely accepted) or the origins of life.

I graciously apologize and will take your suggestions into consideration when directing further unrelated discussions elsewhere.

Permalink Reply by Rudy V Kiist on January 30, 2011 at 8:12pm

Honestly? My feelings didn't change much at all. Besides, I've always found the theists version of after life either vague or just down right strange. Also, personally I don't find to much to fear. When one's gone, they're simply gone. In exactly the same way as I wasn't here before I was born and I don't think of that as a scary time...because I didn't exist. In the same way I won't exist when dead.

Permalink Reply by obfuscate on January 30, 2011 at 10:16pm

I do find some solace in the idea that when you're gone, you're gone, and that there's nothing to be scared of if there's no experience after that point.

Honestly, I'm thinking the hangup very likely has to do with my being raised on the belief that there's an after-life, and the relative comparison of that to the idea of none. It seems logical to me that going from the belief of a conscious immortality to not believing anything of the sort simply gives the impression that something of great significance has changed. The difference between infinity and, well, any other given value, is huge. Of course, we've probably entered into philosophy now.

I had also always found the theists version of life after death very vague, so I think I constructed my own fantasy version of it as well. Even after I had long since realized that it was completely fabricated, I still noticed the habit of turning to it for comfort to remain intact. This concerned, and, still does, concern me.

Thank you for your thoughts, Rudy.

Permalink Reply by If You Shea Show on January 31, 2011 at 3:24am

There is 'underlying' reality here. Stone is solid and water falls from the sky. You don't have to believe in god to believe that you are. You think, and as one of the countless peeps that have seen them dead bastards.. Post life perpetuity of the (for lack of a better term) soul is a fact. The big dif between religious afterlife and a scientific afterlife is that to a baptist and a bhuddist the afterlife is a reward/punishment deal, but scientifically that would only work if the post corpse equation involves ..well as much (or more) politics as life. When you take out a demi-urgic punisher of an overmindy diety out of your systemic logic ..you basically have really superior dead people being snoody towards dead people they don't like.. Almost ..logicaly ..as if being dead was like being stuck in high school for the rest of eternity.. Classes, lunch, seniors, freshman, PE, and etc. Just because 'asgard' is a fairy tale don't mean there isn't an afterlife. I'm just sayin, complete rejection of 'every element of your forsaken faith' is tantamount to 'complete embrace of every element of your faith' correct me if I am wrong, but the idea is the embrace of the rational non religious, and scientific realities.

Permalink Reply by obfuscate on February 1, 2011 at 2:52pm

These are some pretty confident assertions. I would love to hear about the evidence you've come across that supports "the underlying reality" of "post[-]life perpetuity of the soul" --this "scientific after-life" you speak of.

...correct me if I am wrong, but the idea is the embrace of the rational non religious, and scientific realities.

Are you asking here what the idea of nontheism is? If so, I'll have to point you to google and scratch my head wondering why you checked the empty box next to the words "I'm a nontheist" when you joined the community without first knowing the word's definition.

We base our scientific "realities" on observations that remain predictable. It is a matter of probability, not "right and wrong". The sun might not rise tomorrow morning when I get up --but it seems pretty probable to me that it will.

Any information I've ever come across purported to be sufficient evidence for an afterlife was unconvincing. Though, for all I know you might hold this gem that would convince me. To me, it doesn't seem very probable.

Permalink Reply by Rudy V Kiist on February 1, 2011 at 3:18pm

Thank you! That's exactly what I was thinking. At the very least, we're talking agnostic. People can believe that stuff if they want, but someone's on the wrong site here.

I'd love to here the scientific research as well. Keeping in mind Deepak Chopra and the like are NOT considered scientists here. I'd also like to point out, attitudes/emotions are the direct result of hormones, chemicals, physical make-up of the brain, etc. Shea Show seems to be implying "spirits" still have these physical properties, while (I'm assuming) they are some type of energy force. Of course this really is a rhetorical statement as this is an ATHEIST site, not agnostic.

And yes, thousands or even millions of religions can be wrong...they're made up. Thus why they're called religion.

Permalink Reply by Orson_Zedd on January 30, 2011 at 9:12pm

Mortality was never a huge issue, because it's never been something I've worried to much about. When I was religious, I wasn't really looking forward to living forever, because it sounded boring and stupid and a long way off, and I'd much rather dick around earth first.

Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on January 30, 2011 at 9:32pm

I’m not sure if your question is about your feelings to such events as the holocaust, but that is a good place to begin to unravel the thoughts generated in me by your comment.

I, and I assume you, have seen the photos of the German people clearing the dead out the barracks and hauling them off by truck loads to huge trenches dug for mass graves and throwing the bodies in like so much cord wood. I looked at the faces and saw no compassion. I was infuriated! Who were these people? What did they know about the death camps and piles of shoes and glasses? Where was there a sense of compassion directed toward these dead bodies? I listened to interviews and heard such things, as “We didn’t know this was happening!” or “We were told to do it!”

Other images come to mind. I look at photos of the massacre at Wounded Knee with frozen bodies of an entire tribe frozen into grotesque shapes in the snow; I looked at the faces of the USA soldiers and saw no sorrow.

I watched the film of a helicopter crew shooting to death two unarmed news reporters in Af/Pac, I don’t know where, exactly, but the tape recording turned my blood cold.

I watch the films of the torture of prisoners in Iraq and see no hesitation in the faces or behaviors of the ones administering the abuse.

I watch films and interviews of homeowners being evicted out of their homes, with no place to go, no alternative plan put in place, no provision for safe places to sleep … and this includes children being evicted! What in the name of all that is decent happening here?

I see the long lines of unemployed trying to find any kind of work, even for minimum wage jobs, losing health care plans and pensions while bankers and CEO get millions, I write MILLIONS, of dollars.

I ask myself, is this the country to which I pledge allegiance? Are these the values of an army I support? Are these the economic conditions I am willing to give my labor toward?

NO!

Capitalism and Christianity; two words that mean lies, cheats, dominators, exploiters, and without even a little feeling of responsibility.

Let it be known I am not a Christian nor am I a capitalist. Neither belief system has earned my respect or my trust.

You ask if your questions were “too personal, uninteresting or offensive” and I say, “So what if they are; and you are not! They are good questions and ones that deserve respect and response.”