I had some idea about the history of Christianity before joining A N. I had heard of the crusades, inquisitions and the witch hunt but I had no idea that these things were driving people to atheism and that the atheists strongly hated bible, Jesus and Christianity. Although I am an atheist, I did not and do not feel any hate for religion and god. I always read that Jesus was peace loving and that was my impression of him. After joining AN, I noticed the strong dislikes of the atheists and that set me thinking.

The Crusades were religiously sanctioned military campaigns, about 1000 years after Christ. The First Crusade was launched with the approval of  Pope Urban II  to help  the Byzantine emperor, with the latent purpose of restoring Christian control of the Holy Land of Jerusalem from Muslim rule. Thirty five years before this, Pope Alexander II had given his blessing to Christians to start wars against the Muslims by granting a papal standard and an indulgence to those who were killed in the war. A crusader received a cross from the hands of the pope or his delegate, and was considered a "soldier of the Church". The crusaders were assured of remission of sin and were told that by retaking Jerusalem they would go straight to heaven after death.

Muslims were the other part of these wars and were no less brutal than the Christians. Both religions were interested in Jerusalem and in prosylytisation and the target for prosylytisation for each of them were the Jews. This created a serious conflict of interests. In reality, both the Christians and the Muslims were two mobs of savages, who were further intoxicated by religion. They would have anyway fought each other for historical or political reasons even if there was no mention of any violence in the Bible. The religious establishments of both the religions also played a great part by instigating their respective followers. If Islam had not come into existence, there would not have been any conflict of interests and no crusades. The same thing can be said of Christianity also.

The Muslims held Jerusalem at the start and even after the crusades ended 200 years after and their sentiments were almost a mirror image of those of the Christians.

The Inquisitions started in early 13th century and continued till the last half of 19th century. Pope John XXII had authorized the Inquisition to prosecute sorcerers in 1320.

Belief in witch-craft existed since ancient times and it was always hated by ordinary people. It is said that in Rome, in the year 331 BC, 170 women were executed as witches. In 184 BC, about 2,000 people were executed for witchcraft and in 182-180 BC another 3,000 were executed for witchcraft. Biblical thoughts about witches were only the result of this age old belief.

So, these atrocious incidents started about 1100 years after Jesus and continued for about 800 years after that. Now the question that comes to my mind is ‘who should be blamed for these barbaric incidents? God, Bible, Jesus or the savages of the time?’  To get an answer, I ask myself: ‘why do we despise that kind of human behavior today? Has god advised us better? Has a new prophet arrived? The answer to these all question is “NO!” Time and experience   has helped us to mature our thoughts. The barbarians of that time did not have this advantage. They have given it to us at their cost! I therefore look up on these stories as a part of cultural evolution of human beings, and nothing else. I can not blame god for this, the poor chap never existed and was a human invention, I do not blame the bible because it is also created by humans, who apparently were also savages. So, whom do you blame for cultural evolution? Whom do we blame because apes were our ancestors?

Jesus never took to the sword. He accepted a barbaric death peacefully. Eleven of his disciples also accepted death in his name and in peace and even St. Peter’s wife was executed. This tells me that it was not only Christians and the Muslims that were savages, but others that were there before them too were so.

Thinking further, I realize that the Christian mob started repenting and reforming and not the other mob. The Christians realized that combining religious and political power together was the worst ill. So eventually they discovered the idea of secularism. Yes, they were Christians even then. It is they, who, against all bigoted opposition developed modern science. It is they that evolved the modern liberal thought and gave it to the world (including India). Had science and technology not evolved, a far larger proportion of the population of the world would be dying hungry. All these thoughts had created such strong respect for Christianity in my mind, that I used to frequently say that since I do not believe in religion, I stay as I am, or else I would have become a Christian.  

Now, the question I would like my atheist friends, “Is it necessary to hate or denigrate something to acquire a new thought or a new vision?” I do not feel good when one atheist sees Christ in a very ugly place and when another says that Christianity is f****d! MIND YOU, I AM STILL AN ATHEIST!

Please correct if and where I may be wrong. I have placed my views in a very rational way and expect you to do the same.

MADHUKAR KULKARNI

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Replies to This Discussion

The genetic evidence you present has been questioned as being unreliable, because most of it was done at the behest of Israel, in Israeli labs, which I need not tell you is not exactly unbiased in this matter.  If you have not yet read it, I would recommend that you read Schlomo Sand's book, "The Invention Of the Jewish People" which describes how the Zionist mythology came to be.  Another interesting book is "The Thirteenth Tribe," a very controversial book by a Hungarian Jewish historian, who describes the Khazar Empire, how the Khazars converted en-masse to Judaism and why, and their involvement in slave-raiding eastern Europe to supply slave labor to the Ottomans - the source of much of Jewish old money, as well as the name "Slavs" to describe Eastern Europeans.  Needless to say, the Zionists have smeared that book endlessly, but I have verified much of it from other sources, so I know the author is on the right track, if not absolutely accurate.  The book can be found and read online.  I have not found anything quite so definitive and detailed covering the origins of the Sephardim, and so have had to rely on Sand's book.  I might point out he is a Jewish Israeli historian.

Regarding the Palestinians signing a document acknowledging Israel's "right to exist," that was, in effect, done upon the negotiators' signing the Oslo Accord.  Granted, Arafat never did, because the deal was so badly slanted in Israel's favor he could not have done so.  But he did, on several occasions, acknowledge Israel as a "legal entity" in several comments he made publicly before his death.  Even Hamas has made such comments, though unofficially.  The Palestinian Authority has also publicly, formally acknowledged the right of Israel to exist, but only as a fully democratic state in which all its citizens have equal and undiminished rights.  But, once again, Israel moved the goal posts, now demanding that the Palestinians acknowledge Israel "as a Jewish state" - which inherently puts the Arab minority in Israel at a legal disadvantage, making them forever second-class citizens, and also abrogates the right of return of millions of Palestinian refugees in Jordan, Syria and Lebanon as well as the diaspora - and that is why the P.A. simply cannot responsibly do that - a fact of which Israel is doubtless aware.

The fact is that Israel does not want peace, because it is getting everything it wants, one hilltop at a time, without it.  Terrorism has been reigned in.  So why would it make peace?  It would only make dispossession of the Palestinians that much harder.

No, the Palestinians are doing the right thing - just biding their time, agreeing to nothing, signing up to nothing, just letting nature take its course, keeping their own radicals under restraint.  Israel is slowly sinking into the mire of its own selfishness, hubris, corruption and internal contradictions, which grow ever more grievous with every passing day.  All the Palestinians need to do is wait.  Zionism was never a practical project to begin with - you can't build a peaceful and just state on the ruins of a stolen one, taken through terrorism and dispossession.  The Palestinian leadership has now finally come to understand that.  Too bad the Israelis haven't, because that lack of wisdom, combined with their greed and hubris, will be their eventual undoing.  The CIA says it will all be over by 2030.  I figure it won't take even that long.

Natalie,  I think you've been mislead which I've found is quite common in those who've been brought up in a jewish "Chosen Ones" environment.  Much like Christians who were brainwashed by their parents, jewish kids are similarly brainwashed with mythical tales - there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of Abraham, or any of the Patriarchs; ditto for Moses and the Exodus; Passover; and the same goes for the whole period of Judges and the united monarchy of David and Solomon and their fictional 'temples'.  Those myths were used, esp. after WWII, to justify a horrible genocide in Palestine that resulted in the false creation of "the Israeli homeland".  It is not a "homeland" because the jews were never there in the first place.  It's all just hasbara (hebrew propaganda).

There is a very good book you and all other, mislead diaspora zionists should read: "Taking Sides: America's Secret Relations with a Militant Israel" by Stephen Green.  It explains, with copious notes and data back-up, exactly how the U.S. financed, armed, manned and transported a conscripted army from Eastern Europe into Palestine to implement genocide that caused the Nakba (catastrophe) that is now referred to as Israel.  This was sanctioned by Harry Truman, a Xtian zionist, so that he could win an election.  His campaign received $2Mil in blood-money, delivered right to his campaign train, by Edmund I. Kaufmann, President of Zionist Organization of America in return for U.S. logistical and direct military support:

http://www.jhsgw.org/israel60/slideshow/zionists-and-truman.php

Then Secretary of State George Marshall, easily the best Sec. of State in American history, told Truman that if he allowed those Eastern European jews, armed-to-the-teeth, into Palestine, that he, Marshall, would not vote for Truman in the next election.

Truman should have listened to Marshall, but his greed & hubris prevailed and the world has been plagued by this phony state of Israel ever since.

You know, I wasn't going to reply to Scott's post, just ahead of yours, because I don't want to get into a discussion with people whose minds are already made up, and not open to facts which do not support their theories. But now, I feel I have to.

First the issue of genetics. I already mentioned the common origins of breast cancer genes in both Ashkenazic, Sephardic and Mizrahi Jewish women, which simply could not have originated anywhere except in the Middle East where they came from. I also mentioned the Cohen Y chromosome which again, could not possibly be the same in all 3  populations unless they had a common origin.The genetic studies were not at the "behest" of Israel trying to prove a lie -- they have been widely corroborated and accepted by scientists all over the Americas and Europe, where these populations were dispersed to.

The reason that the book "The Thirteenth Tribe" about the Khazars is controversial is because there is simply no corroborating evidence. There WAS a "Jewish" state of Khazaria, but it is uncertain whether anyone but the nobility converted, and it lasted only a couple of centuries. There is evidence that the whole population simply converted to Islam when they were conquered. Only a very few were ever documented to have made contact with Jews elsewhere -- primarily in Spain, NOT in Eastern Europe. There IS, however evidence that Jewish traders went north from Israel, and married Germanic women because there were no Jewish women available. The vast majority of them were not Cohens, however, because marriage restrictions were stronger on Cohens, which is why their genetic lineage remains so clear.

If Jews were converted Europeans, or other indigenous communities, they would show similar genetic types, blood types and diseases as the surrounding communities but they don't. Here is an article that refutes your position -- NOT published at the "behest" of Israel. http://www.alor.org/Race,%20Culture%20and%20Nation/Jews%20and%20Gen...

As far as archaelogical evidence, while there is indeed no evidence for the mythology of Judaism, there is abundant evidence for the existence of David and Solomon and later Jewish existence in Palestine. The temples were NOT fictional -- otherwise why do their ruins exist? Along with multiple ruins that are clearly Jewish in origin. You have to look at the facts on the ground, not denialist literature which is common in the Arab world. Where would the Jews get their Hebrew and Aramaic literature, in languages that are clearly and demonstrably closely related to classic Arabic, if they never existed in Palestine?

I do not accept your notion of a conscripted East European army to implement a genocide -- those Eastern European Jews came to Israel on their own fleeing the CONTINUED murders after WWII being committed in Eastern Europe, and the fact that they had nothing but the clothes on their backs after losing their families in the Holocaust. Israel was the only country willing to take them in -- the US sure wasn't.

And I was NOT raised in the Christian misunderstanding of the "Chosen People". I'm not going to go into it in detail here, but will answer in a separate note if you want to understand what it REALLY means.

In NO way do I deny that the Arab people of Palestine have legitimate grievances, but when I hear 3rd and 4th generation American Palestinians moaning about the loss of "their" homeland, I am reminded of nothing so much as the Jewish people moaning about the same thing.

I've stated before, and will continue to believe that the road to peace is for each side to accept the other and compromise with the understanding that neither one will get everything it wants, but I do NOT believe in "Palestinianism" as supported by untruths, flat-out lies, the refusal to believe the proven history of the Jewish people, and unwillingness to see both sides of the equation.

Natalie,

Your position that the preponderance of genetic evidence is that the Jews are of a common origin is disproven by simply looking over the long lists of genetic disorders present in the Ashkenazi and Sephardic populations.  You will note that there are few common diseases among the many listed.  I would expect if they were from a common source, relatively inbred as you posit, I would expect the correspondences would be much greater than they are. 

Regarding archaeological evidence, nearly all you are referring to was produced by ideological axe-grinders, which has become something of an industry in Israel, both by bible-bangers and Zionist Jews trying to prove an ancestral land claim.  There's a problem with that.  Since the interpretation of archaeological evidence is highly subjective, I find such assertions to be suspect to say the least.  Indeed, I would recommend you read Finkelstein and Silverstein's book, "The Bible Unearthed."  You will find that there isn't a shred of evidence to support any Jewish or Hebrew identity at all prior to 1200 BCE - unless you interpret scant evidence to say what you want it to say.

In the meantime, I would like to ask you if you own or have interest in any real estate in the United States or Canada (yes or no will suffice - please answer honestly).  If so, I'd like to ask you a question about it...

Natalie,  I'll just echo what Scott has written and ad that I think you are in denial due to the brainwashing you received from parents and, I suspect, trips to Israel with your children's synagogue group or something.

If you ever want to know the real story of how Truman and the rich, mostly New York, zionists stole the land they now call Israel, you must read Stephen Green's "Taking Sides: : America's Secret Relations with a Militant Israel".  But, I suspect, like most diaspora jews, you already suspect this and do not want to know the truth.  That Thomas C. Wasson was shot - in the back - by that slimey little punk terrorist (sorry, those are the only words that can truly describe him) David ben-Gurion to start a phony war, against "the Arabs" fought by an air force of U.S. pilots & maintenance crews and an army of American-trained, Eastern European conscripts armed with U.S. supplied ordnance.  It's all documented in Green's book with copious, FOIA documents that reveal the total involvement of Truman & the Pentagon.  But I suspect you'd rather still cling to Leon Uris' "Exodus" fairy tale.  The zionist media cannot even show the Paul Newman movie anymore, it's SO embarrassingly jingoistic and bullshit.

Israel and the zionists have been implementing basically the same plan ever since - trumpet some phony propaganda in the New York Times so that Israel can sneak-attack "the Arabs", start a war, and then steal more land & water.  The Iraq war, at least for me and obviously millions of others, was the last straw.  The zionists used their media to trumpet phony WMD claims against "the Arabs" and the U.S. invaded an innocent country, killed and/or displace millions of innocent people, so that the zionist ghouls could steal more land & water.  It's sickening.

Finally - please - the "ruins" of the 'temples' have been exposed, over & over again, as phony.  There is a booming business in Israel of making & selling these phony "relics".  There were no temples.  Period.

Here's an actual fact for you: at the supposed time of these 'grand temples', the total population of Jerusalem was - about 1500 persons.  You can look it up.

If you've got the guts.

Otherwise, keep believing the racist fairy tale and in your 'Invisible Super Sky-Grandpa' who left the deed to Palestine to his "Chosen Ones".  So you can drop some more white-phosphorous bombs on Palestinian children - with a clear conscience when you read, in the NY Times, that the Israelis are just 'protecting themselves' from the colored hordes - maybe they should re-hire Jayson Blair to put a new spin on that old fable.

So, Scott, you don't think 3200 years of evidence of Jewish identity in the lands of Israel, Judah, Samaria and Palestine is enough, compared to ~700 years of Islamic presence? Again, I'm not disputing Palestinian grievances, just saying that there are 2 sides to the story.

Since your and Stephen's posts are getting increasingly far from proven fact, your phraseology is increasingly insulting, and your minds are made up and not open to genuine, unbiased scientific evidence, I will not make any more responses to your screeds.

You can believe what you want, but the facts do not support your case.

Natalie, since you didn't answer my question (I suspect you figured out where I was going with it), I'll just come out and say it:  Evidence of ancestral existence in a certain spot does NOT confer property rights.  I happen to be a Native American; my tribe, the Montawk, never gave, sold or transferred ownership of our ancestral lands; we were simply pushed off.  Since our tribe held undisputed ownership, which was never conferred on anyone else, are you going to recognize my ancestral land claims?  Since we asserted shared ownership of all of North America, I just think I'll start to reassert my ancestral land claims with any property you may happen to own in North America.  Mind you, I am only going back 400 years to assert my ancestral land claims; you are going back five times as far in history.  So, how about it?  If you honor my ancestral land claims, I'll shut up about yours.  Deal?  So where do I come to pick up my keys and title?

Somehow, I didn't think you'd go for it.  In other words, it's not really about the sanctity of ancestral land claims at all - it's about finding a moral excuse to steal property that someone else already owns.

If you really believe Israel is such a red-hot deal, why don't you go live there?  I really would love to see all diaspora American Zionist Jews shut up and put their money where their mouth is and go live in that sump of racism and corruption, and actually live in the mess they've created.  If Israel isn't self sufficient 63 years after its self-declaration, it never will be, so quit burdening the United States with your tribalist parasitism.

"I will not make any more responses to your screeds."

Score one for the Good Guys!  Way to go, Scott.  Another zionist slinks back under comforting glow of her Tee-vee screen where all the FoxNews blonde hosts agree with her and shovel the same ol' zionist malarkey ad nauseum, ad infinatum: that Israel is 'teh awesome democracy' and the colored people "hate us for our freedom!".

Here's a little spot of Israeli freedom & democracy for ya':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h74_IpAAuiw

And finally:

"you don't think 3200 years of evidence of Jewish identity in the lands of Israel ..."

Tell ya' what, Natalie, I've got some awesome 'relics' from 'the Holy Land' for sale on my website and, in celebration of your Chosen-ness, I'm offering you a 50% discount on all the "3200 years of evidence" you can carry:

http://www.milechai.com/judaica/jewishartifacts.html

But - we don't seem to have much BEFORE 1st century CE - the time of the Romans.  Not much ... Uhhh, actually, not ONE-SINGLE ARTIFACT from that-there "Abraham" and "Moses" era.  Gee ... I wonder why?

It's EXACTLY those kind of insults that have caused me to stop responding to you. You know nothing about me, and apparently nothing about the things I have repeatedly brought up to you. You have scored exactly nothing.

Steven,

That video clip

Here's a little spot of Israeli freedom & democracy for ya':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h74_IpAAuiw

says better than anything I can say about why Israel is approaching collapse.  Through sheer racism, they'll push the Africans out, and then who will babysit their kids and clean their toilets?  They won't let the Palestinians in to do that, and they hate anyone with a skin darker than their own, so what are they going to do?  I've never understood how they figure to build an honorable and just society on the basis of a 19th century racist, tribalist, supremist ideology in a land stolen from someone else.  Simply not going to happen, and that video is proof that it just isn't going to work.  The sooner that whole Zionist project collapses of its internal contradictions, the better off the whole world will be.

Said I wasn't going to reply any more, but I couldn't resist referring you to this page on an AUSTRALIAN website about the genetics of Jews, and their origin in the Middle East, and NOT in Khazaria or among any of the populations among which they lived.

http://www.alor.org/Race,%20Culture%20and%20Nation/Jews%20and%20Gen...

Of course, I don't expect you to believe this, but I DO place more faith in science than in unprovable myths about origins, like your assertion about the Khazars.

Another one:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/10/science/10jews.html

And I'll stop here, because I could fill up the whole computer's memory with articles about the well-documented history of the Jews' origin in the Middle East. Even the divergence point in Italy bespeaks the Roman influence. It's not the Jews' fault that they were killed and enslaved and taken off their land, any more than it's the Palestinians' fault that they took what they thought was empty unowned land. BOTH groups have legitimate claims, even if you refuse to acknowledge that.

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