Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Dogly on February 9, 2012 at 8:07am

Yes, Madhukar.  I agree with everything you just said.  I guess that is one important reason we have all come here to learn, encourage each other, and debate ideas. Thanks!

Permalink Reply by Madhukar Kulkarni on February 9, 2012 at 11:30am

Dogly,

I forgot to add something that I wanted to:

 I find Madhukar's posts extremely interesting, thought provoking, and intelligent.

Wow, Dogly's meowing is sweert!! Thanks, I rarely get good compliments!

Permalink Reply by Greg LeGore on February 8, 2012 at 1:13pm

Agree on that - of course we all have our own backgrounds with strengths and non-strengths, and often they are opposite manifestations of the same phenomenon.  I was born strongly literal and take things at their face value, but that can also make me pretty stubborn because I miss some of the subtleties...and we all have aspects like that.  So some of us may approach atheism as you do, simply as the absence of a god, but others may think that theism, and especially at its most destructive, is best countered by organized atheism.  And that'd be worth discussing too, I think...how can we, for example, keep America from becoming a theocracy as Rick Santorum wants (I'm not being political here - but he literally thinks that and has recently restated the point).

Permalink Reply by Dogly on February 8, 2012 at 1:08pm

All discussion on this subject is interesting and welcome.  Each of us expresses his opinion as his very own.  It is just that Madhukar seems to be trying to find a common set of beliefs or opinions among us all.  I'm trying to convince him that that is impossible.  I find Madhukar's posts extremely interesting, thought provoking, and intelligent.  It may be a simple matter of his manner of expressing his ideas, but there are never only 2 opinions on any subject when it is discussed by atheists  ;-)  Madhukar, have you ever heard the saying about 'herding cats'?  When referring to a difficult group to organize, we say it's like trying to herd cats.  From WiCTIONARY: "An idiomatic saying that refers to an attempt to control or organize a class of entities which are uncontrollable or chaotic. Implies a task that is extremely difficult or impossible to do, primarily due to chaotic factors. "  MEEOOOWW!

Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on February 22, 2012 at 2:53pm

Dogly, Kind of like the Democratic Party?

Permalink Reply by Sail R's - Roz and Russ Worrall on February 8, 2012 at 9:00pm

These are provacative questions. It seems that when a natural born atheist confirms atheism (type 1) from a knowledge-based, conscious choice (type 2) the two are combined. It is not an either/or argument. Personally, I believe I was born an atheist, baptized against my will, indoctrinated into religion kicking and screaming, and escaped as soon as I had a knowledge base that defied the fictions. My family still prays for me.

Permalink Reply by Madhukar Kulkarni on February 9, 2012 at 12:57am

Sail R's - Roz and Russ Worrall

I would like to look at my questions as being evocative rather than provocative, which simply may be their apparent appearance. If type 2 atheism succeedes the type1 atheism without an intervening  and contradictory state, then it is evolution, but with the presence of an interveneig phase, the two can not be said to be combining. One may say that one was born an atheist to please oneself, but one really can not know, can not remember, can not prove this for a fact.

 It was really good for you that you acquired the knowledge based atheism.

Permalink Reply by Madhukar Kulkarni on February 9, 2012 at 11:24pm

One more question comes to my mind in this context. When asked, all atheists here will tell you how he/she became an atheist, no body says "I was born that way!"

Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on February 15, 2012 at 3:43am

Two different opinions about what constitutes atheism.

 

1. All humans are born atheists and they may later become religionists or confirm themselves as atheists, as they grow up.

David Eller writes a compelling argument that a child is born without knowledge of god/s and grows into the culture into which he/she is born. Atheism is an “affair of the mind” in which humans are not solely rational creatures, but also emotional and social. Atheists are not just debaters or thinkers, or reasoners, they may be creative, affirmative, with a sense of wonder and awe of nature. They are disenchanted with myths and fairy tales. David Eller, “Natural Atheism".

http://www.amazon.com/Natural-Atheism-David-Eller/dp/1578849209

 

2.  Atheism must be a conscious decision.

An atheist must be able to proclaim that he/she:

Does not believe in god,

No such thing as god exists,

God is a human creation, a fiction.

 

Madhukar: "Therefore, atheism is a knowledge-based argument. This opinion will not support “natural atheism” theory but will lend atheism tremendous weight of firmness arising out of knowledge. Atheism thus defined will not be a transient atheism but will be a potentially firm belief, reversible only in the most unlikely event of knowledge supporting belief in god.  This definition of atheism will permit secularism, agnosticism as precursors to atheism, as it’s natural steps. Science can be a strong part of the support structure of such atheism."

Madhukar: “These are basically the arguments of the two sides. Which opinion is more correct? Which one would you support and why?”

An atheist is someone who simply is not a theist.

a= "absence of." 

A + theist

A + moral

A + typical

A + symmetry

 

A child is not born with a belief or disbelief in god/s.

He/she has an absence of belief in god.

The child learns theism from parents and community.

Life’s challenges may cause a growing child or adult to doubt and question if theism is true or false.

An individual may:

         Believe God does not exist.

         Disbelieve a theistic God exists

This is a cognitive process in which one make a decision that may be contrary to cultural and social norms. 

Most people are not aware of being a theist or atheist ... it is a decision that comes from emotional and cognitive dissonance followed by cognitive processes of searching for the answer of god or no-god. 

Permalink Reply by Madhukar Kulkarni on February 15, 2012 at 4:06am

Joan Denoo

Your reply is elaborate and educative. You may probably remember that we had a small dialogue on the very same topic and I too had held that atheism is based on knowledge that makes one decide that god does not exist. More than once my this opinion was contested and I was advised that even a child that does not know god is an atheist and hence atheism is a default position of humans. I could not agree with this position and so I decided to see what most atheists here think. I am glad to know that most appear to agree with me. Thanks for your elaborate reply.

Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on February 15, 2012 at 4:46am

Mahukar, you stated, "More than once my this opinion was contested ..."

Isn't it great?! We can make a statement, it goes all over the world into other peoples' minds, gets punched and jostled around a bit, returns to us with a different frame and we can add it to our tool kit of knowledge or cast it off into the great unknown of space. I love it!

Permalink Reply by Madhukar Kulkarni on February 21, 2012 at 4:23am

Joan,

Gettinge punched and jostled " a bit" would be alright, but most of us who contested my opinion are not here to debate. They simply have decided to overlook this discussion so that they can retain their definition without question. One person even asked me " Madhukar, why do you want to change the definition of atheism?"  As time passes, who will remember this discussion?

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