Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on February 22, 2012 at 2:44pm

Does not the principle of turning a shoe string into two bows apply? When children come into the world, they possess no such knowledge. By observing, experimenting, questioning, exploring and usually some frustration, they learn how to tie a shoestring. 
When children come into the world, they possess no knowledge of god/no-god. By the same cognitive and experimental processes, they learn whether god exists/ does not exist. These learned behaviors change over time and experience and more knowledge. Therefore belief in the existence of god is learned, as is belief in the non-existence of god. 

Madhukar wrote, " Not believing takes knowledge. Not knowing is simply ignorance ..."
My next question, If not knowing whether there is a god/no-god, do humans have the capacity to develop into wise, courageous, compassionate, productive beings?

My answer to my own question is,  OF COURSE! All one has to do is pay attention to the quality of life of many native cultures around the world and know learning comes from applying critical thought to problems of survival and thriving. Some cultures have very strange rituals and patterns of behavior and yet are able to raise up a next generation that thrives. Isn't that evolution reveals: survival of those who are able to bring forth another generation? 

Permalink Reply by Richard ∑wald on February 25, 2012 at 12:43am

"Not believing is not the same as not knowing."

In some ways they are identical, their antonyms on the other hand, …different story.

"Not believing takes knowledge."

About as much as a fish needs dancing lessons.

Not knowing is simply ignorance

Ignorance is not necessarily an epithet, sometimes it's merely a circumstance, often it's an honesty. It's only a bad thing when it's willful. 

"...which can be said to be unpardonable to a person possessing some intelligence."

The person saying it would be very ignorant, and not in the good way...

Permalink Reply by Greg LeGore on February 8, 2012 at 8:29am

Madhukar, interesting question. I think that one can certainly be indoctrinated by just about any set of ideas, as history shows, and think them normal.  I (amazingly) agree with the Baptists, who think that the decision about one's religion, or lack thereof, must be made by a free adult who is consciously aware of her/his decision and the reasons behind it.  In that sense, if might be considered similar to informed consent for medical purposes...one cannot give consent if impaired, if incapable of conscious thought, etc.)  The decision is acknowledged via a public baptism of that adult.  Adjusting that idea for atheism, it would simply mean that the person has considered the evidence and situation and thinks that there is no god (which usually brings along many other thoughts about the supernatural, end of life, etc.)

Permalink Reply by Madhukar Kulkarni on February 8, 2012 at 8:36am

Greg LeGore

You have put it excellently. Atheism is not a religion but certainly is an ideal. No ideal can be accepted base on ignorance, it has to be accepted with the help of knowledge. Enlisting a child as an athist is childish!

Permalink Reply by gerry gallacher on February 8, 2012 at 10:01am

The most correct position would be the knowledge based atheism, as for the transient position well we are all in a state of stransience which both atheists and theists share, rarely in my experience have both 'opposites' theists and atheists believed in the same aspect of their knowledge for an extanded period of time. Its all transient focusing at different times and places on different aspects of what they hold to be important and which addresses the issues and arguments of the day.

Permalink Reply by Dogly on February 8, 2012 at 11:29am

Greg and Madhukar:  But, atheism is NOT an ideal.  It is a freedom from belief in gods. An atheist can be as ignorant as anyone else.  He simply does not believe in gods.  Madhukar, your posts seem to consistently attempt to discover the 'true'  philosophy of the atheist.  I keep telling you that there is none.  Look to Humanism if you want a specific philosophy.  

The only thing all atheists have in common is that we do not believe in gods.  

Permalink Reply by Greg LeGore on February 8, 2012 at 12:52pm

Dogly, I agree with your post, esp. the bold statement.  I was simply mentioning that there is some difference, whether important or not is open for discussion, between someone being a non-theist since childhood (could be from dogma not being imposed by parents, or a young adult realizing the falsehood of religion, etc.) and someone coming to that realization via a considered assessment of the situation.  That's really my point and, not speaking for Madhukar, maybe his as well. That branch of the discussion might focus more upon childhood indoctrination and mal-adaptation caused or induced by religiously-caused damage to a person, their family, their community.  Discussions about the adult aspects might focus upon setting aside that early indoctrination and becoming more free and more rationale at least in that aspect of one's life.

Permalink Reply by Madhukar Kulkarni on February 9, 2012 at 12:49am

Greg LeGore

You do not seemed to have noticed about the bold statement that all atheists can not have a common belief coming from just ignorance!

Permalink Reply by leveni on February 8, 2012 at 4:16pm

Hey Dogly,

An atheist can be as ignorant as anyone else.

I fall into this category. The more I read about genetics, the more I realise how little I know about it. The same for things like evolution, astronomy and gravity. 

Your statemet:

The only thing all atheists have in common is that we do not believe in gods.  

sums up atheists as a group pretty well.

 

Permalink Reply by Madhukar Kulkarni on February 9, 2012 at 1:56am

leveni

An atheist can be as ignorant as anyone else.

I fall into this category.

This is plain modesty and a very admirable one too. Do not stretch it too far. You are an atheist, a firm atheist and it takes something to be an atheist. I do not know how you became an atheist, but today your atheism sits on a firm foundation of knowledge. Your trust that no god exists is not unsupported.

Permalink Reply by Victoria Vann on February 22, 2012 at 1:01pm

I'd have to agree too. We're united by only one factor and that's our non-belief. Anything else is just extra.

Permalink Reply by Madhukar Kulkarni on February 9, 2012 at 12:42am

Dogly

I do not, can not and will not deny that I would be very happy to evolve some commanalities in atheist character, but this particular thread is not for that purpose. An atheist should know what atheism is, what he stands for and when I see two opinions giving two definitions, I ask myself "What I reallt am?"  Have I swung from an unintended, ignorant state of atheism, then to faith and then again rejected it? Or, was my initial phase of ignorance just a part of evolution of me as a person? I ned to make a sound and intellegible decision. If I want to make intellegint decisions on important social subjects, I need to have an ideal.

I think this should trouble any atheist as it questions the very basis of his atheism.

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