Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Estee Koen on November 30, 2010 at 3:31pm

im also in this situation.. but worse, my parents are still religious one and claim as muslim. even i dont tell my parents that im already an atheist, also atheism isnt allowed in this country. maybe u can say different to your co-worker, but still becareful with who u tell about your faith..

after all im proud to be an atheist..

Permalink Reply by Joseph P on November 30, 2010 at 4:19pm

Ouch. Yeah, I'd be really cautious about that, in the country you're in right now. I don't know if your parents are that kind of insane, but you hear stuff in the news about Muslims committing honor-killings of family members who violate some edict of Islam.

What are your plans for the future? Are you planning on getting out of Indonesia to a more liberal country or something like that?

Permalink Reply by Estee Koen on November 30, 2010 at 4:34pm

im lucky coz my family isnt like that. even theyre strong in muslim but theyre not like in mid east people about "honor killing" and i think in my country, muslim people dont do such a things, so i think "honor killing" is some kinda culture to prevent sex without marriage, but still sex without marriage is really rare in here coz most of muslim.

yes i planned to move out from indonesia, but im still a student and need to finish my school, and i need strong financial to move to another country.

Permalink Reply by Joseph P on November 30, 2010 at 5:22pm

It's not just in the middle east, though. I've seen stories about honor killings happening in England and Canada. It may have happened in America, but I don't specifically remember any stories.

Still, you know your family. It takes a special kind of insanity to kill your own child over religion. Most people don't have that, no matter how religious they are. If you know your parents aren't that insane, you should be okay.

Even forgetting the insane, over-the-top reactions to you leaving Islam, just in general, it's easier to not be an out-of-the-closet atheist. One of the things I hear over and over again in any atheism advice forums is that if there's any threat to your health ... any threat even to your economic or social well-being ... play dumb and keep your head down. Let other atheists who can afford it carry the torch.

I can be out and in-your-face about it, but then I'm in a very liberal area. The only place I pull any punches is at work, and even then, I specifically do little things to annoy the Christians, like pick my reading material for my downtime from my more provocatively-titled books.

That's cool that you've got your escape planned. How many more years do you have until you have your degree?

I mentioned in some other thread how one of my friends who's getting her masters degree has a roommate who's a conservative Muslim from Indonesia, which I mentioned in another thread. The US has lots of stuff set up for students from other countries. I'm sure many European countries have similar programs. Good luck with that.

Permalink Reply by Estee Koen on December 1, 2010 at 1:33pm

oh i see, i dont know that honor killing happens in canada and england.. even though my parents wont kill me, but they will kick me out of their family member, but im ready for that.. also ii have to face the law, if someone make a report to police they will arrest me bcoz of my apostasy.
thats why i keep to careful enough with who i tell them about my non theist. so far just my sister (she is agnostic) and some of my friends know that..

Permalink Reply by Joseph P on December 1, 2010 at 5:34pm

Yeah, you get individual families of fundamentalist Muslims who move to England or North America, and then they react very poorly when their children grow up with more western values. In America, the Muslims are a little more integrated, but England is having a problem with Muslims trying to push for Sharia law within their own communities.

The law is a far greater concern, yes. That's the big reason to remain quiet about it, in a country like yours. I didn't think Indonesia was as much of a theocracy as Iran or Saudi Arabia. I knew there were a lot of Muslims, but I didn't know they controlled the government. What sort of penalty is there for apostasy, in Indonesia?

And good lord, your parents would kick you out of the family for it, though? That's not quite as insane, but that's still pretty far out there. I can see how it doesn't matter to you much, when you're planning on moving to another continent. They won't be as much a part of your life, after that.

Is your sister planning on getting out of the country, too?

Permalink Reply by Estee Koen on December 3, 2010 at 5:37am

in Indonesia has 6 religions which is allowed. its muslim, christian, catholic, hindu, budhism, and confucian. every indonesian has to choose one of those religion, as the basic of country we called that "pancasila" which is mean 5 moral principle. and the first one is "believe in God" it means that every indonesian has to get religion by choosing one from 6 religions that allowed. atheism will not allowed. some said that atheism will be big issue in here coz they said its same with "communism". for being atheist in here people will be in jail for about 4 years.

my sister is planning to move out also, but she is still 15 years old, so she just keep her faith as secret

Permalink Reply by Joseph P on December 3, 2010 at 4:23pm

Well, on the one hand, the penalty is less insane than in the middle east. In many countries, you're lucky to only get life in prison, for apostasy. It's still enough of a threat to pretend to be a good little Muslim, until you can get out of there.

Hmm, so what I want to know is what's wrong with Communism? I mean there's the fact that it doesn't work, and that it makes the country vulnerable to being taken over by a totalitarian dictator, as happened in China and the Soviet Union. Working a few elements of it into a government isn't a bad thing, though, just like Socialism.

Hmm, so your sister is stuck for a while longer, yeah. But, if you're already in some other country by the time she turns 18, you may be able to help her get there, too. Either way, you could probably get approved for a visa to many countries by claiming religious persecution. I know the US is good that way.

Permalink Reply by Dr. Terence Meaden on December 1, 2010 at 5:43pm

Murder, which they euphemistically call honor killing, does occur in some Muslim families in Britain.
This is one of the great human tragedies that result from insanely believing in a god and spirits that do not exist anywhere except inside the deluded brains of the stupid irresponsible killers.

Permalink Reply by Joseph P on December 1, 2010 at 5:50pm

Yeah, I've been getting bits about this from listening to Pat Condell, as well as the usual news sources. There are still issues with Christianity, but the more immediate issues, in England, seem to be with Islam.

Permalink Reply by Jim DePaulo on December 1, 2010 at 6:15pm

Culture drives honor killings more than religion - the cultural element is just reinterpreted in a religious context. Many Muslim nations have outlawed the practice but have made meager efforts to enforce the law.
Honor killings are not limited to Muslim countries - there is a significant number in the non-Muslim population of India, as well as a large number of women accused of being witches.
The entire practice is no more tolerable than it would be in a culture that practiced human sacrifice. At least the practitioners of human sacrifice did it the hope that it would benefit the whole society - honor killings are just some preverted form of saving face.

Permalink Reply by Joseph P on December 1, 2010 at 6:30pm

Well, India has its own screwed up issues. And the Muslims are the only ones I hear doing it after the family has moved to a western country.

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