Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Steve Capellini on June 28, 2012 at 6:56am

Hi Natalie,

Regarding this:

"I think the desire for a god to take care of us is a universal need in people who don't have the mental ability or the emotional strength to accept otherwise."

In my opinion, it may not be a question of mental ability or emotional strength. I was at one point caught up in a cultish religion and later left it. Many people, even clergy, end up leaving a faith after a time. Was it that they did not have mental abilities or emotional strength while they were members of the religion? Then they suddenly or gradually grew this mental strength later? I think it's more a matter of being exposed to different, non-theist points of view, of broadening one's point of reference through questioning things, of maturing, of being lucky. I am the same person I was when I was in the cultish group, when I was believing in their beliefs. My mental abilities are the same. It's my frame of reference that has changed. We are all believers by nature. We have to make a conscious effort, using those same mental abilities, to extricate ourselves from the natural tendency. Anyway, that's my two cents worth :)

Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on June 11, 2012 at 1:35am

Michele, great question! I hope someone comes up with an explanation. 

Permalink Reply by Nathan Hevenstone on June 11, 2012 at 2:13am

This is a common misconception. The Orient is, in fact, very spiritual.

The reason they are seen as having little, if any, religiosity is because "religion" is a Western concept. They only know what it is because they are connected to the West now and because of (mainly) Christian Proselytizers. However, they themselves have no concept of religion, at least not as we understand it. So if you ask an Asian if they're religious, most of them will say no. But if you ask them if they believe in a higher power and spirituality and the like, the vast majority will say yes.

Permalink Reply by michele ricketts on June 14, 2012 at 10:23pm

That is why I asked how theist orientated are Orientals.
Another reply answered it as "religion" is a way to connect community. Faith goes hand in hand with urging consensus. But not always bigotry as much as community. I know church goers who profess belief but seems to be more an insurance policy because not sure what's out there(or in there ) The main reason is to feel part of the party.They just do it as a cultural connector as you say. If consensus shifts towards agnosticism say they blow with it. Its an unknown statistic -believers to be part of the party

Permalink Reply by Madhukar Kulkarni on June 17, 2012 at 9:58am

Nathan Hevenstone

I do not know how you got the idea that the eastern people have no  idea of religion. The Vedic religion (Hinduism) is the oldest religion in India  and was closely followed by Jainism, the atheist religion. In 600BCE, another atheist religion, the Buddhism alo emerged in India. So they definitely have the idea of religion. Buddism has very little preseence in India now and Jainism also has a small presence. Zoarastrianism came to India almost immediately after emergence Islam. Hindus are very religius people and great god believers. If anybody in India would say that he is not religious, it would be only because most city dwellers have stopped practicing many religious rituals, but otherwise, their faith is still very strong. 

Permalink Reply by Nathan Hevenstone on June 17, 2012 at 3:33pm

Easy. Polls taken in the orient asking if they are religious show a very low level of religiosity, yet different polls show an extremely high level of spirituality.

"Religion" is a Western concept. When I said they have no concept of it, I didn't mean that they don't know what it is. I meant that they do not consider religion something inherent to their cultures. A traditional Buddhist, for example, would not consider Buddhism a religion. Sam goes for a traditional Jain. Zoroastrianism and Islam are, like Christianity and Judaism, Western religions that made their way to the Orient. More often than not, especially for those who take Christianity, they incorporate the Western traditions into their Eastern philosophical traditions.

As such, most of those in the Orient do not consider themselves religious. They do, however, consider themselves very spiritual and very traditional

Permalink Reply by John Bourgein on June 11, 2012 at 2:28pm

I think the east started relatively early with the notion of a universal group rather than tribal group.They had Confucius and the Dao early on in their cultural/statehood/communal development. The focus was universal group membership rather than tribal. Theistic focus in the west was on tribes as in "chosen people" etc. We probably have Amenhotep to blame for this and it may be more than coincidental that the earliest Judaic monotheism is somewhat parallel (1300-1400bce - but who copied who would be an interesting discussion).

I am not sure there is any record of a war between two cultures over pantheistic issue (i.e. pantheistic religious wars) - we had to wait until we had "theistic" religion before the benefit(sick:-)) of religious wars. Plenty of early wars over possessions, bragging rights, insults, etc., but not because our gods are better than your gods!

A good read on the evolutionary psychology of religion as groundwork for this is "The Righteous Mind" by Jon Haidt.

John

Permalink Reply by michele ricketts on June 14, 2012 at 10:39pm

That's what I mean universal group membership. Was Confucious and the Dao
a sense for the collective unconscious since Jung invented the word not the inherent meaning that existed way before in man.?

Permalink Reply by Madhukar Kulkarni on June 17, 2012 at 10:08am

John Bourgein

When you talk of the east, you seem to think only of China and India seems to be out of your mind. Yes, there were no wars here because, as you say, "our god is better than your god" reason because Hindus' in particular and Indians in general are benign people. In spite of this, Hindus did face the 'our god is better than your god" attitude of the muslims for a period of at least several hundread years. Stories of demolished temples still rankle in Hindu minds.

Permalink Reply by John Bourgein on June 11, 2012 at 3:14pm

But the Jews did proselytize prior to the destruction of the second temple in CE 71! They were very successful in fact and at one point came close to being the dominant religion in Rome.

Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on June 11, 2012 at 7:09pm

You're right, but that has nothing to do with modern Judaism. And when the person mentioned the Big 3, I'm sure he wasn't referring to Pre-Christian times.

But if you really want the low-down, the Jews stopped proselytizing because they were forbidden to do so by the Christians on pain of death -- can't have any competition, you know!

Permalink Reply by Madhukar Kulkarni on June 12, 2012 at 10:28am

No, the orientals have not escaped. The biggest religion in this part of the world is Hinduism and Hindus still are highly religious and even superstitious. Much of the east is also Muslim, and they are well ahead of Hindus in this respect.

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