Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Richard ∑wald on April 11, 2012 at 8:11am

A few things here of note:

"we are among the most amazing (and stupid) creatures on earth"

This immediately brought to mind Ernie Cline's "Dance, Monkeys, Dance!"

"I have one son for the record, who probably has aspergers syndrome, he is 5 and is being tested at the moment."

This does not make him less than human, or even necessarily not able to contribute to the greater good, the same can be said for many different endogenic afflictions. There are indications that autism spectrum has a genetic component to it, but it is just one component, not the root causality.

Eugenics is a bad idea, period, one need not raise the specter of the Third Reich to make this point. Remember why eugenics and nazis are an inevitable conflation: Sure, one can diminish the degree of separation from "nazi" in how eugenics can be employed in a "different way", but this doesn't and can't separate the elements of eugenic practices that have "same way" aspects to them.

Over-population has the potential to be a problem, but Malthusian predictions proved to be wrong. Where the tipping point is we do not know, I suspect we will when we get there; I also suspect that there will be a self-limitation to population growth/sustainability that will ameliorate by natural means, …it always has. There's no reason to doubt that it always will.

As for parenting licensing as a practice, while it may look good on paper, it does't take into consideration the power of the individual to self-determination, …and that one can go either way - regardless of quality of parenting.

Permalink Reply by Richard ∑wald on April 11, 2012 at 9:42am

It disappeared from its original web page a few years back, and although Cline has a few of his own versions up, this one, I think is the best. So I uploaded it to my YouTube channel.

I found this version (unauthorized) on the interwebs many years ago and extracted the Flash file from the page to archive it.

I used to watch it from time to time whenever I'd become disgusted with various and sundry aspects of human stupidity, …and it always made makes me smile.

as you can see

these are some fucked up monkeys

these monkeys

are at once

the ugliest and the most

beautiful 

creatures on the planet

and the monkeys don't want to be monkeys

they want to be something else

…but they're not

Permalink Reply by Stuart Jeremy Oxley on April 11, 2012 at 10:34am

Awsome video. Ya could've mentioned the swearing though, my littlun was in the room. Anyway, if it wasn't for the fricked nazis we'd probably be practicing eugenics in some form or another by now. There is no doubt that the nazis were a bunch of racist, antisymetic, pschos. Unfortunatly they twisted most of their good ideas to support their campaign of hate.

The problem with waiting for nature to sort things out is that it usually involves horrific natural culling not the hopeful thing that scientists are talking about, nature will soon sort out any groups that are conveniently reducing their fertility.
I just want a happy, diverse, peaceful, healthy human race, where religion has no say in politics. Getting to that point is always going to be troubled and complicated, with everyone wanting an opinion.
People need to realize that making sacrifices and devoting time to society, will make a better society. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be rich, I'm not a communist, but selfish, aggressive, or lazy people need to be pushed to brink of extinction, by peaceful and lawful means and by social education and genetic selection.
This maybe morally abhorent at the moment, but groups that would complain loudest were burning women at the stake a few hundred yrs ago and actively protect paedophiles amongst other things.
You are right to a point about self determination but children are sacred, they deserve a proper healthy up bringing by loving, competant parents, genetics, behaviorally modified genes and social upbringing all play important roles. I have personally witnessed why this is true and have spoken with ex-police about patterns of behaviour in some families that prove this. I have studied Population biology at university level whilst doing Bsc Palaeobiology & Evolution at Portsmouth university. I don't proffess to be an expert but I do say what I know.

Nice blogging with you and peace be with you.

Permalink Reply by Richard ∑wald on April 11, 2012 at 11:03am

"Ya could've mentioned the swearing though"

Sorry, as it's poetry, I probably have a bit of a blind spot there. I also have children around, I've taken to having headphones permanently plugged into the ol' iMac as well.

However, mea culpa...

Permalink Reply by Tommy on April 11, 2012 at 5:59am

Although they are way over the top there is something there. I have been saying controlled breeding was our only hope for years. The world is already supporting way more of us than it can now. The obvious end is extension.  Morons like the ones you hear about all the time with 19 kids is not helping the situation at all. If we limited the birthrate to a mandatory 1 kid we would be on the right track. I really believe even more extreme limits should be enforced. Like, if you can't support them you shouldn't have them. A certain amount of mental stability should be a must. I catch flak anytime I voice this opinion but really its like being a christian turned Atheist, you might not like to face the truth, but it is the truth.

Permalink Reply by Nontheist Central on April 11, 2012 at 6:59am

The percentage of extinct species, as far as I know, is 99.9% that are now extinct, fyi.  I've heard Dawkins use that figure as well.  Not saying that makes it true, but that's also the figure I've seen most often and by people who've actually done research on the subject.

I've heard of VHEMT before.  I watched a show once where they were talking about their ideas on procreation.  I gotta agree with Tommy here.  I think there's definitely some good ideas there, but they've taken it to the extreme.  This could be expected with just about any movement.  Look at WBC, for example.  There is truth in the idea that the world would be fine if humans were extinct, however that's unlikely to happen and I don't think that's the way to go about fixing the Earth anyway.  The only way way to fix the population problem, I think, is to fix the problems that make people have so many kids in the first place.  Lack of education and poverty are what seem to be the two main problems that result in "mass producing" children, which only makes the problem worse because then their kids are likely to be poor and uneducated...and more likely to believe in a religion, by the way, as most of you already know. If we focus on education, however, the poverty problem, I think, will fix itself.  Education is proportionate to salary.  There are myriad studies that confirm this.  That's what we should focus on.  Uneducated people don't make very good decisions.  

Permalink Reply by Stuart Jeremy Oxley on April 11, 2012 at 10:38am

The 99.9 estimate is the most widely accepted number and has been around for at least ten years as this was the number taught to on my uni course on palaeontology.

Permalink Reply by Richard ∑wald on April 11, 2012 at 8:15am

Fucking Bravo!

Seriously...

Permalink Reply by Nontheist Central on April 11, 2012 at 9:21am

  The Earth is our environment.  That's why people are concerned with "saving the Earth".  It's the only place we have to live right now.  I haven't seen anyone here who suggests that the Earth has a soul.  A lot of people here don't believe in the concept of a soul for a person, let alone for inanimate objects, so I think you've missed a point here.

  For me, there was no morality in my mind when I wrote my response.  It has to do with simple math.  Our population is growing and our focus on science has decreased, in the U.S. at least.  We cannot possibly effectively handle a massive population without the help of science.  We can't possibly feed so many people nor could we control diseases and things that would utterly destroy us as a species, and no, I'm not thinking about all the sick, starving children around the world.  For the purposes of my reply, it doesn't matter that they die horribly, the fact is that they are dead and become part of a statistic, from which I'm drawing my conclusion.  It has nothing to do with moralizing, for me.  It has to do with survival and advancement of our species.  It's just logic.  There are only so many places suitable for humans to live, unless we use science to create new environments for ourselves in the places that aren't suitable.  We can't possibly think that people will come up with any plausible ideas unless they are properly educated about reality - how the world works and, more importantly, clearing up misconceptions about observations, for example, praying for rain and rain comes.

  All I was trying to say is that real knowledge given to people instead of "knowledge" from a holy text or other misconceived observation will undoubtedly fix a lot of the problems people see as moral issues, like starving, diseased children.  The math shows that more education leads to less poverty, as well as less superstitious beliefs.  The math shows that less poverty leads to fewer children being born.  The math shows that fewer people in the world leads to more supply for the ones who are living.  Then we get to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which, while it's "just a theory", it seems to hold an awful lot of water.  As basic needs are met, society, as a whole, becomes happier and more productive.  Again, it's simple math.

Permalink Reply by Nontheist Central on April 11, 2012 at 10:14am

So you can only see things literally...gotchya.  I meant the human population of the Earth.    I'll stop feeding the troll now.  *eyeroll*

Permalink Reply by Stuart Jeremy Oxley on April 11, 2012 at 10:59am

To John D.

We're talkin bout savin species when we're talkin about savin the earth, and not screwin up the atmosphere. We're not into the whole gaya final fantasy b****cks. The earth will be here until the sun destroys it, if it destroys it completely of course.
I am an ape!
I am not feeling guilty about anything!
I wear boots not shoes!
I like bellyaching, it is fun!
I like living in Anthropocene!
We are not a virus, viruses are very small. We are a plague of bald apes tearing up our environment!
If you don't like our discussion, my next sentence ends in off!
Kindly **** off!
Peace be with you!

Permalink Reply by Stuart Jeremy Oxley on April 11, 2012 at 3:01pm

I never said I love people! I love a few, like a few more, the rest I'm indifferent too. Our species sucks as whole. We are in the next big extinction event due to our ignorance. I could go on, but won't!
Technically we are apes, monkeys have tails. If you want to generalize, call us primates. Not that I'm being picky.

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