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Comment by Johnny P on January 26, 2011 at 4:21pm

tony,

 

i have feverishly been listening to some of the old Bible Geek stuff to send you the link for some of Robert Price's old talks on this. http://hw.libsyn.com/p/6/4/8/6487e21bd2f88605/The_Bible_Geek_Ep5.mp...

listen from 35:20 onwards and there is some good stuff on this. if you like Price's stuff, put in 'the Bible Geek' into itunes and download the 50 free podcasts he has done. I did have some stuff on the Polytheistic ideas in the OT that I had written, but the company running our forum went under. grrr.

 

n conclusion, there was definitely polytheism in many parts of the OT. Tim Callahan's Secret Origin of the Bible is a good read too.

Comment by The Big Blue Frog on January 26, 2011 at 2:13pm

I see this as a matter of semantics. Angels are immortal. They can move freely between the spiritual and material realms. They have free will and knowledge of the nature of good and evil. They are, in essence, not any different from God. In fact, according to Genesis, the only qualities necessary to "be like" God are knowledge of good and evil and immortality. The only thing they seem to lack, according to Christian theology, is the ability to create ex nihilo, as God does.

 

They are, in almost every sense of the word, minor deities.

Comment by Tony Davis on January 26, 2011 at 1:45pm

Thanks ]3ig ]3lue Frog! 

 

Ok, first, what's with the name?  There has GOT to be a good story behind the name and the creative spelling.

 

And, this is fascinating me because I have studied and researched so intently for the past few years to work on this book I am trying so diligently to write.... and it appears I am still abysmally ignorant on a few points.  I guess we always keep learning right?  I knew, in general terms there was an argument to be made that the Jews were not always monotheistic, popular perceptions aside, just wanted to get some confirmation.  Here's my next question, and I have NO idea how a Christian would explain this one away.  I know the real answer, just haven't asked a Christian yet:  How are angels NOT minor deities?  If you look at the Greek and Roman gods (and many others) there is a Big Boss god, and then you've got all these other "gods" like Hermes, Loki, etc.  Why is it wrong to call angels "minor deities"?

 

Thanks all!

Comment by The Big Blue Frog on January 26, 2011 at 12:57pm

Tony, there are also other references. For instance, when the three men walk out of Nebuchanezzer's oven, the Bible says there was another with them who was "like a son of the gods." Many Bible translations Christify this by changing to "son of God." but the Hebrew word is "gods."

The word "Elohim" as a name for God in the OT is plural.

Comment by Tony Davis on January 26, 2011 at 7:02am

Thanks Joseph!

Comment by Joseph P on January 25, 2011 at 11:05pm

Tony, you might find these episodes of The Atheist Experience to be insightful:

 

#464: Gods of the Old Testament & Hebrews

#466: The horrible god of the OT

#483: Old Testament Gods

Comment by Tony Davis on January 25, 2011 at 7:34pm

Craig,

 

Thanks!  I had a feeling that was where this would take me.  I knew about other references to other gods "worship no OTHER gods before me" and the like, but just wondered about the "we created man in our image" stuff.

 

Thanks!  And I'll check out your book!  I am trying to write one of my own and like to see as many different perspectives as I can!

 

VR,

Tony

Comment by Craig A. James on January 25, 2011 at 7:01pm

Tony - Actually the Jews were polytheistic until around the time of Jesus.  The book "God against the gods" by Jonathan Kirsch has an excellent history. The oldest parts of the Old Testament talk about many gods in a number of places.  The Jews believed in many gods, but promised their fidelity to Yahweh only.  In the time between around 500 B.C. and a couple centuries A.D. their polytheism died out and was replaced by true monotheism.  At the risk of sounding self serving, I devoted a whole section of my book to this topic, why paganism turned to henotheism (worshipping one god but believing in many) and finally to monotheism. There are a lot of passages in the Bible that clearly refer to many gods and I quote some of them in my book (The Religion Virus).

Comment by Tony Davis on January 25, 2011 at 6:39pm

Hey folks, help me out there.  I am actually at a loss on this one!  And sorry, the only book I am talking about is the Bible... forgive me..  LOL

 

I have often sort of teased my monotheistic friends with the question "When God said in Genesis 'WE created man in OUR image', who was this WE if there is only one God"?

 

Now, I know all the answers from a Christian perspective.  That was Jesus already there, from the beginning as the Gospel of John said and that Jesus was the word through which God spoke existence into being, etc.,...  

 

But what of the Jews, who don't believe in the Triune God of Christianity?  Who do the Jews thing "WE" were?  Was this the "royal WE", as it "We are not amused!" 

 

Thanks!

Tony

Comment by Kelvin Hilerio on January 23, 2011 at 6:18pm

I didn't mind the "metafictional" ending, i'm glad you read it. I agree with you that it does offer a reasonable summary of philosophical schools, i definately recommend it to those who are interested in philosophy and want to start studying it, or just anyone who is into interesting mind bending fiction.

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