this is why i am an atheist. long ago a friend died, and i had to try figure out why. i was still a mild believer. my grandma had repeatedly fed me the mantra, god is love. so why wud a just, benevolent god, who is love, create this world, filled as it is with evil? thats my question.

nother query. how many of you were turned to atheism by this?

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Replies to This Discussion

 Tom Sarbeck

Madhukar, it's more accurate to say insensitivity does not reside in words, but readers' sensitivities result in their reactions to words.

Tom, you know what you are saying? What you say means no one ever uses insensitive words or language but it is only the reader that interpretes a language or words as insensitive.

What I said about Christians was not personal. It is true that atheists here have been lamenting a great deal about the past and therefore I had posted some discussion as well as replies to some threads to this effect. You must have seen most of them.

i have knowledge. crap man, even natalie dissed israel. did you read her post? the post that got that insensitive reply readr as if israel killed her relatives. of course that is silly. i dint coment on it.

i dont recall reading atheists crying over christianitys ancient evils, what are you refferring to?

mebe im insensitive, but im honest. if sensutrivity requires dishonesty im gonna be insensitive.

masdhukar, you bring up method of dying. i guess to you the gas chamber is the worst possible way to die. i dont know. but i do know that those were all, in the crusades, in the inquisition, in the holocaust , at wounded knee, at blasck lynchings, when the british killed indians, when my own country kills iraqis and afgans, at 9/11, all the dead were individual human beings.  all were atrocities. i agree with you tho the holocaust was terrible. there is no excuse for it. im not trying to wxcuse it at all.

all i said was, israel had nothing to do with the holocaust. it didn't kill any one in gas chambers that im aware of. of course the holocaust was probably the cause of the state of israel, but not the other wat around.

Carl, If I was wrong, I stand corrrected.

Are you being sarcastic, or genuine? Of COURSE born-agains support Israel for their OWN religious reasons -- and one of Israel's primary sources of income is Jesus-based Biblical tourism. There are many Jews who find their "friendship" repugnant, especially because one of their agendas is to convert Jews to Christianity so that the end of days can come.

I should think it's pretty clear by now, that, while I don't believe in any kind of god who is stirring up our world with his finger to see what will happen, I remain ethnically and culturally Jewish, and I have a GOOD knowledge of Jewish history and culture and beliefs. I was actually taught as a child that god was without form, without limit and unknowable -- and that's pretty typical of modern Jews (a pet peeve of mine is how often Christians and others confuse modern Judaism with Biblical Judaism -- they AIN'T the same by a long shot). So it wasn't much of a step toward agnosticism (haven't gone all the way to atheism, as I can't be CERTAIN that I know that there's nothing unexplainable out there).

So my perceptions of Israel are colored by the Holocaust, which is burned into my heart in a way that you can't appreciate, except that I tell you I can't think of the Holocaust without thinking that instead of my aunts and uncles and cousins, it could have been ME. So I, like most Jews, feel that we MUST have a haven, because if it could happen in Germany, the country of the enlightenment, it could happen anywhere (and has, to other people, in places like Cambodia and Rwanda). The Holocaust was only the culmination of 1500 years of violent Christian persecution, with many of the same kinds of laws as Hitler adopted, such as forcing Jews to wear yellow, so that they could be easily recognized, charging them outlandish taxes, forcing them to live in ghettos (from the Italian "borghetto" - little town -- and you thought that was a black invention!) rioting and looting their businesses on occasion, murdering them, particularly on Easter Sunday, because their priests said the Jews killed Jesus, making most occupations illegal for them, so they had NO CHOICE but to be money lenders (too dirty an occupation for a Christian), etc.

All this is not to say that I don't understand Palestinian issues, which are real, and my dream is to see a Palestinian state alongside Israel, economically united in that each side DOES have something to offer the other, and allowing the Palestinians to have the Islamist state that they so clearly desire, which NECESSITATES a Jewish state for Israel. American-style democracy and "salad bowl" demographics are impossible in the Middle East. You probably don't know that Jews were persecuted in Arab countries, too, although they deny it, just as they deny the unmistakeable, archaelogically proven Jewish roots in the land. In Yemen, a Jew was not allowed to ride a camel, because that would put his head higher than a Muslim's -- a matter of status. If the Jews had been living happily in Muslim lands, they wouldn't have come POURING into Israel just as soon as they were able to, right after the War of Independence. So all I want for my people is to have the right to live freely in their own culture, just as most peoples (but not all!) in the world do. Arabs have that right, across a BROAD swath of land, but want to deny it to the TINY parcel of land that makes up Israel.

I'm NOT saying that Israel should be annexing land by constructing settlements in the West Bank -- I think that is entirely counterproductive, and there is MUCH about the Israeli government that I disagree with, especially that religious zealots have WAY too much power in a parliamentary system -- the majority of Israelis, although they celebrate holidays much like Americans do, are pretty non-religious. But I draw the line at the destruction of Israel.

Probably more than you wanted to know, and I think I'll start a new thread about it. :-)

Natalie, I quit xianity fifty five years ago and have for decades told even xians that religion is the biggest fraud ever perpetrated. I am genuinely ignorant of all but what I see in the news.

When I do satire, i direct it at authority of any and all kinds.

ok. some of us know domination theory well, but some of us do not. those that dso not, shud. im sorry if my explanation pissed you off.

Tom - Of course what you say is 100% correct. The only thing I can add is that since the overwhelming voting block is 'Christian' - whom are the spawns of Judaism - support for their surrogate parents (Jews) is obligatory.  As atheists we're screwed basically.

I have no dog in any fight with Israel. They are NOT my people any more than the Palestain peoples are not mine. I don't 'come from them' any of them as far as I can tell - and for that I'm neutral about all thoe countries. I don't like my taxes going to aid and abet any of them. To many dogs in this fight.

Carl, I'm seeing your concern about whether the postings here are justifying this thread's continuation.

As a result, I'm realizing that not since I was in Catholic school religion classes have I heard of or given thought to the Problem of Evil. Methinks I've been confusing instances of evil, such as those people have reported here, with the problem of evil.

Does the following identify the issue better?

The Problem of Evil is that believers, at least those who claim their supreme being is good, cannot admit that he/she/it created evil, and further cannot explain his/her/its allowing evil to exist.


Madhukar, when I say insensitivity does not reside in words, but in readers' sensitivities to words, I know well what I am saying.

You have often shown your sensitivity to what others have said here, as you did in asking rhetorically (not for information, but to state your position) if I know what I'm saying.

You surely know there are no sensitivities in the marks you read on the screen; they are but marks on the screen. You react as you do and I react as I do.


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