Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by A3Kr0n on July 8, 2011 at 1:12pm

I take that as "affirmative".

Permalink Reply by Vitomama on July 8, 2011 at 12:06pm

About a week ago (Independence Day) I had to bear another of those Facebook re-posts that "friends" always seem to trot out on holidays. It was the Pledge of Allegiance, with the plea to "re-post if you believe in it and think it's terrible that we used to recite it every day in school but now nobody does it anymore for fear of offending someone". First, it's not true that nobody does it anymore. My kid still has to say it every morning in school. Second, see Loren's comment. I had to inform this "friend" of these facts and added for good measure that my kid just doesn't say 'under god'. God-worshippers are always whining about issues that don't exist. 'Under god' should go the way of McCarthy.

Permalink Reply by sk8eycat on July 8, 2011 at 1:38pm

I hear you.  I got two copies of a very smarmy email, from people who I thought knew better,  that started with the undergod pledge (with "under god" underlined), then it went on to  god-bless everything but the dogcatcher and Death Valley, and ended up with "The very best gift you can give a soldier is a prayer."  I wrote back that if I were in the military a box of homemade cookies or fudge (or a notice that we were being demobilized ASAP) would be appreciated a whole lot more than a bunch of words or a lit candle.  I signed off with Robert Ingersoll's marvelous line:

"Hands that help are better far than lips that pray." 

I haven't heard from either person since.  I suppose I should feel relieved, but I wish people would think before they "forward this to everybody on your list."  And I wish they would really think about that eloquent Ingersoll quote.

Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on July 8, 2011 at 6:06pm

That is a great quote. And it isn't even a declaration of atheism. People who believe in god could also have the same attitude, kind of like "god helps those that help themselves".

 

Permalink Reply by Tara on July 10, 2011 at 9:10am

I love that quote. My highly religious, born-again relatives and acquaintances, not so much. :P

Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on July 8, 2011 at 3:07pm

When I was teaching high school and middle school, the kids knew the routine, and I just stood there and didn't say anything. We do have the right not to say the pledge. What if kids knew about that and started not saying it -- the whole custom might fall down in shambles!

Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on July 8, 2011 at 6:07pm

I sure didn't know I could opt out of pledging when I was a kid. I remember some uber patriotic teacher saying "The pledge of allegiance is not a right; it's a privilege!"

Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on July 8, 2011 at 8:59pm

I'm not sure it was legal to opt out when you were a kid. I remember a court case (but don't know when) that Jehovah's Witnesses brought, because to them, the pledge is an oath, and their religion forbids oaths. Funny how even religious people can sometimes do a good deed for freedom!! :-)

Permalink Reply by sk8eycat on July 12, 2011 at 11:32pm

That lawsuit was decided by the Supremes back in the 1940s.

 

Wikipedia:

West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943), is a decision by the Supreme Court of the United States that held that the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Cons... protected students from being forced to salute the American flag and say the Pledge of Allegiance in school.

It was a significant court victory won by Jehovah's Witnesses, whose religion forbade them from saluting or pledging to symbols, including symbols of political institutions. However, the Court did not address the effect the compelled salutation and recital ruling had upon their particular religious beliefs, but instead ruled that the state did not have the power to compel speech in that manner for anyone.

***********************

Hardly anybody knows about that decision except the JWs and atheists/agnostic who belong to orgs that discuss the matter.  States and local school boards don't mention it because they want to avoid controversy with the crispies...or they are crispies, and they don't want others to know that they have rights, too.

 

Strictly speaking, from a fundamentalist and Jewish point of view, the ritual is "idolatry."

Permalink Reply by Lary9 on July 8, 2011 at 4:17pm

My friend, I share the belief, already vetted by others, that any Pledge of Allegiance is counter to the original ideas of our democratic republic and quite silly for mature citizenship.

Permalink Reply by Donna Darko on July 8, 2011 at 12:47pm

I'm only sorry I could only vote ONCE!!! I would say NO, NO, a thousand times NO!

Permalink Reply by sk8eycat on July 8, 2011 at 1:14pm

Ahah!  You CAN go back and vote as many times as you want to.  Very unscientific poll.  I sent the link to the people at FFRF, so maybe they'll post it on their blog, FacePalm (I detest Facebook!), Tweet-twit (ditto), whatever.  The percentage of "NO" is now 19%....tee-hee!

 

Vote early and often, folks!

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