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Godless in the garden


Godless in the garden

Welcome to gardeners, growers of veggies, fruits, flowers, and trees!  


Welcome  backyard hen enthusiasts, worm farmers, beekeepers & composters!

Location: Planet Earth
Members: 169
Latest Activity: 6 hours ago

Welcome to Eden!

If you like to dig in the dirt, plant & prune, grow food & flowers, or sit and watch as someone else does your landscaping, you'll find something here to discuss!

Selected topics, in sort of alphabetical order:
Aging.  Gardening with an older body.
bees.  insectary.  insectsbee gardening. Beneficial insects.  insects drive evolution

Compost.  herecontaminated compost.

Backyard Chickens here. here. here. here.

Edible yard.  here  urban farmfront yards.
Growing Fruits


Fragrance and Scenthere.
Fruit growing.  in a small space, by backyard orchard culture.
Frugal gardening.  labels.

Gardening for future generations.  also permaculture, trees, historic varieties, soil

Hegelkultur here, here, here

Heritage and historic varieties.   heresources

locally grown plants to prevent blight transmission here.

Moon Phase Widget here. Moon phase topic here.

PeppersHot peppers.

Permaculture MollisonFalk  Liu, Joan's IntroTransformation in 90 days, Perm Principles at work. Food forest, Holzer

Potatoes.  here.

Rooftop gardening.  here

Seed starting. starting spring crops.

Scientific Gardening.   The Informed Gardener.  The truth about garden remedies.

Soil and soil building - healthy soil microbes, mycelium, dirt is everything, soil analysissoil pH.


Tomatoes.  Myths and truths

Trees.  Tree tunnels.  Ancient tree planting. Plant commemorative trees

Comment Wall


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Comment by Daniel W on November 19, 2013 at 4:26pm

Chris there is at least some truth to what you hear about Americans.  I think the favorite activity IS shopping.  And watching TV.  I don't know about the streetwalker question.  But it doesn't seem safe.  There might be people who get into their car to go across the street, but not many.   Even so, in my suburban area, there are no stores less than a couple of miles away, and they don't have much.

Comment by Plinius on November 18, 2013 at 10:20am

They do freeze over, but not every year. When there is 5 cm. of ice, a Frisian tradition awakens: can we organize an Elf Steden Tocht? Waterways connect 11 Frisian towns, and once there is 12 or more cm. of ice they organize a skating trip along that route. You must be a very strong and practised skater to finish the trip - no, I don't skate.

Yes, all the shops are here within walking distance, and a few department stores. And I can take public transport for more shopping, and of course the internet. I think there are some big box stores in this country, but I never bothered to think about them; you can only get there by car and I don't drive. Sometimes a neighbour gives me a ride to a garden centre,  also hard to get there without a car.

And can you walk to the shops? I hear lots of things about Americans and I have no idea how much is true. E.g. Americans get their car to go to the other side of the street. E.g. An American woman cannot take a walk on her own for she will be seen as a streetwalker. E.g. favorite pastime in America is shopping. Bill Bryson writes about some of these things and he seems to enjoy it, but I wouldn't. Can you enlighten me?

Comment by Joan Denoo on November 18, 2013 at 9:03am

I didn't realize the canals froze over in winter.  Driving from Brugge through Netherlands to Germany and then north, I remember very flat lands and a low mountain range to the south. 

Google Earth shows very pretty Dutch style houses such as in Amsterdam, Anne Frank style. I see lovely tree lined canals. I couldn't find any roof gardens. 

Do you have stores, i.e. grocery, bakery, butcher, clothing, within walking distance? Do you have the big box stores that contain everything from meats and vegetables to hardware, automotive, etc.? 

According to the land use map, you live in cattle and grains producing area.  

Comment by Plinius on November 18, 2013 at 3:38am

Hi Joan, there was glaciation here, in the north of the country. The glaciers formed low hills and left moraines, which were used in the dolmens later on.

The canals still freeze in winter, but in the Little Ice Age winters were unusually cold and lasted about half a year. Now we consider a frost period of six weeks unusually cold. As far as I know the Little Ice Age was caused by lower activity in the Sun, so the sea level was probably a little lower.

I'm a descendant of seasonal hands who worked the land in the area of the Dutch/German border. There are no stories left as far as I know.  

Comment by Joan Denoo on November 18, 2013 at 2:58am

Chris, it appears on the maps I checked that the Netherlands didn't have glaciation during the most recent Ice Age. I think the ice came as far down as southern England. Is that your understanding? I know there was a "Little Ice Age" when Amsterdam's canals water froze. It lasted from around the middle of the sixteenth to the mid-nineteenth century. Does your family or community have stories about that period. I wonder what the sea level was at that time. 

Comment by Joan Denoo on November 18, 2013 at 2:15am

How interesting. I suppose there are many relics in the muds of the Netherlands, with all the armies crisscrossing your nation over the centuries. 

I ran across 

In a 37.5 meters deep well in the Oosterschelde, researchers find remains of animals from the Early Pleistoceneabout 1.9 million years ago. On 1 September 2012, a fossil of a canine was fished up. This makes it the oldest dog ever found in the Netherlands.

The primeval landscape of the Oosterschelde 1.9 million years ago was a subtropical forest with swamps, rivers and open grazing areas.Mammothsmastodonsrhinocerosdeer and zebra-like ungulates lived there. This canine is, after the saber-toothed tiger, and the hyena the third carnivore now known from that era.

The fossil dog’s jaw is now on show in Naturalis museum.

Three tough mammals — a huge “bear dog” and two saber-toothed cats — were among Europe’s top predators 9 million years ago, according to a new study.
So you have some pretty interesting ancient fossil history in the Netherlands. 

Comment by Plinius on November 18, 2013 at 12:28am

Thanks for the info, Joan! A good way to make unseen country come alive in the mind!

Here in the mud is not very much to be found: some dolmens and bog bodies, and some Roman leftovers, most visible in old place names and in the distances between their settlements - a days march. And North Sea fishers sometimes find bones and teeth from woolly mammoths in their nets.

Comment by Joan Denoo on November 17, 2013 at 5:58pm

Yes, we do have fossils of horses in the NW. 

Also a Mammoth fossil was found near Rosalia, WA, south of Spokane, in 1872; it is on display at Fields Museum in Chicago.

50 miles south of Spokane there was a mastodon found and we know that extinction occurred during the Homo sapiens migration into the Americas during the last Ice Age.

Mastodon fossils, Washington state,+Washington+state&... 

Mammoths became extinct 10,000 years ago; fossilized remains of the Columbian mammoth were found on the Olympic Peninsula. 

Glacial Lake Missoula and the Ice Age Floods

Mammoth from an ancestral species of north African mammoth (M. africanavus) disappeared about 3 or 4 million years ago. Descendants of these mammoths moved north and eventually covered most of Eurasia (these were M. meridionalis, the “southern mammoths").

Comment by Joan Denoo on November 17, 2013 at 5:52pm

Prehistoric extinctions (beginning of the Holocene to 1500 AD)

(Holocene began 10,000 years ago at the end of the Pleistocene)

American Cheetahs, American Lion, American Mastodon, American Mountain Deer,

Giant hutia (110 and 440 lb).


Columbian Mammoth

Dire Wolf

Giant Beaver,

Harlan’s Muskox,

Harrington’s Mountain Goat,

armadillos or ‘Holmesina septentrionalis’ ,

North American Jaguar,

Saber-tooth cat,

Scott’s horse “Equus scotti’

Short-faced bear,



Stilt-legged Llama,

Stout-legged Llama,

polar bear ‘Ursus maritimus tyrannus’

Western Horse ‘Equus occidentalis,

Woolly Mammoth 

Comment by Joan Denoo on November 17, 2013 at 5:51pm

List of North American animals extinct in the Holocene

Prehistoric extinctions (beginning of the Holocene to 1500 AD)

Notice the extinctions began about 12,000 years ago and the end of the Pleistocene was about 12,000 years ago. 

"About 12,000 years ago, the valleys of western Montana lay beneath a lake nearly 2,000 feet deep. Glacial Lake Missoula formed as the Cordilleran Ice Sheet dammed the Clark Fork River just as it entered Idaho. The rising water behind the glacial dam weakened it until water burst through in a catastrophic flood that raced across Idaho, Oregon, and Washington toward the Pacific Ocean. Thundering waves and chunks of ice tore away soils and mountainsides, deposited giant ripple marks, created the scablands of eastern Washington and carved the Columbia River Gorge. Over the course of centuries, Glacial Lake Missoula filled and emptied in repeated cycles, leaving its story embedded in the land."

Spokane to the coast near Portland was profoundly impacted by these floods. Rocks, soils, huge chunks of glacier wiped away any trace of Pleistocene and early Holocene evidence of life. The flood cut to and through the bedrock. 


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