LGBTQI atheists, nontheists, and friends

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LGBTQI atheists, nontheists, and friends

Nontheist lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and intersex people & friends.

Location: International
Members: 609
Latest Activity: 8 minutes ago

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Comment by James M. Martin on July 14, 2014 at 7:47am

sk8eycat, I take issue with the claim that Tolson was Hoover's 'life time love" since no one has come forward with anything but circumstantial evidence, such as the fact that they lived together and shared each other's companionship for decades. Yes, the circumstantial evidence is strong, but there are other reasonable hypotheses, as we say in the law. Hoover is also long rumored to have been a cross-dresser but that, too, has never been proved. Leave it to an FBI guy to figure out how to hide something for the duration of his adult life. Wasn't Matlovich dishonorably discharged for his open homosexuality? I read plenty about him when he had his 15 minutes, but can't recall any details. And, BTW, I too continue to believe there was something other than friendship between Hoover and Tolson. Guess you recall the way Oliver Stone portrayed them in his movie about Nixon. They are shown at the horse races, and there is every reason to suspect that Hoover issued his proclamation that there was no such thing as the Mafia, because he was what the mob calls "a degenerate gambler." Also, Stone shows them sunning poolside at home, and it is interesting in this regard that Stone cast Brian Bedford as Tolson. Bedford is fairly well known to be gay, although I don't think he ever came out.

Comment by sk8eycat on July 13, 2014 at 11:04pm

I emailed the photo of Leonard Matlovich's grave to a friend who lives in DC...here's his reply:
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Sgt Leonard Matlovich.   He's buried in Congressional  Cemetery.  It's not far from me but I haven't been there.  Two other people buried there are J. Edgar Hoover and Clyde Tolson his life time lover.  They are not buried nest to each other but in different rows but the graves are within sight of each other. 

One of my friends has told me that if you go to Hoover's grave and look toward Tolson's you see Matlovich's stone.   I'm sure that if that's true it is coincidental but I want to believe that some wag orchestrated this.

Comment by Grinning Cat on July 13, 2014 at 9:52pm

Thanks for sharing Leonard Matlovich's moving tombstone, which he designed without a name, to be a memorial to all gay veterans.

Also for that cartoon poking fun at a common assumption! <grin>

Comment by Ruth Anthony-Gardner on July 13, 2014 at 11:47am

Comment by Ruth Anthony-Gardner on July 13, 2014 at 10:13am

Comment by Grinning Cat on July 12, 2014 at 7:31pm

Ruth, I love that set of photos too!

As for the "alphabet soup", I agree that all of us outside the "straight and narrow" model should be included, whether by an alphabet soup like LGBTQIA* (with wildcard at the end for other letters) or a term like GSD (Gender and Sexual Diversities, as proposed by London-based Pink Therapy).

John Corvino explains the distinctions between sexual orientation and gender identities in "LGBTQrstuv: Bisexuality & Transgender" (even though he talks about gender as a binary).

Comment by James M. Martin on July 12, 2014 at 7:21pm

I like Ruth's photos, too, and Sentient, no apologies are needed for your good rundown on how the alphabet soup evolved. Since all kinds of people are using the four-letter version on TV nowadays, it's become kind of "official." And who am I to say?

Comment by The Flying Atheist on July 12, 2014 at 5:16pm

Ruth, I love those three photos!

*******************************

Regarding the whole "alphabet soup" issue.  If we are to be a community that represents and includes all persons whose sexual and/or gender identity is "different" than the mainstream, then I'm fine with having as many letters as needed.  It is up to each of us to individually identify ourselves in a manner which is personally comfortable.  Sexual orientation and identity can be very fluid, so the inclusion of many identifying terms is necessary.     

Comment by Ruth Anthony-Gardner on July 12, 2014 at 3:41pm

Comment by Sentient Biped on July 12, 2014 at 1:58pm

Actually, the LGBTQI...  collection comes out of many years of activism, debate, political correctness and incorrectness, and idealism.  If all of the pixels and bits and bytes and paper that went into the discussion, could be collected together and made into something, it would be very impressive.

wikipedia version of that history.

Back when the dinosaurs were lumbering across the Midwestern swamps - yet to be renamed "wetlands" - and I was a struggling gay young man, I joined gay rights groups whose purpose was to provide community, refuge, and debate issues of the day.  At the time, we referred to the issue as "gay", which we all thought was inclusive of anyone who wasn't "straight" in the supposed binary of sexuality.  Then, in this entirely subjective history, a few women joined the group, and it was changed to "Gay and Lesbian".  But that's not fair, so it was changed to "Lesbian and Gay".  Much time was spent then with complaints about how bad men are, and how gay men were no better than straight men.  These discussions managed to drive a lot of people away, and then there grew the realization that  oppression has always been there for many flavors of gender expression, so it was expanded to LGBT although some guys thought GLBT was more appropriate since they thought they existed first, not remembering Sappho.

Then there was the academic movement of the 90s and beyond, who felt that "Questioning" and "Queer" should be added, which alienated some of the veterans who experienced much persecution involving the word "queer" but which many of the younger, and older, members of the movement said, get over it you crusty old farts - of which I am proud to be, but agism isn't part of the paradigm.

I find it pretty appalling that intersex folks are often forgotten in all of this.  If anyone has been persecuted for their involuntary gender /sexual nonconformity, it's intersex people.  Often, mutilated shortly after birth, and then repeatedly for life.  Exactly which bathroom is an intersex person expected to use?

Oh well, enough of my rant.  With enough letters in an acronym, we can just call it "Anybody but Straight Homophobes", or "ASH".

I think all people should be able to choose how they label themselves, and others should respect that.  There may be limits to that, and the debate will never end.  Never.  Not ever.

Having much of my life been affected by persecution and discrimination, I don't care what labels people use.

 

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