This is a good topic for a discussion. It seems a shame to waste it by having it off board. If Buz the Bear has some objection to moving the discussion into the discussion area I can delete it.

Buz the Bear's first email:

A message from Buz the Bear to all members of Gay Atheists on Atheist Nexus!

I enjoy being a member of several groups here at atheist nexus including this one. What bothers me is the phrase "godless". I prefer "deity free" since we seem to include nontheists like myself and agnostics (I presume). Of course I also think that straight or heterosexual folks should be called the "ungay". Maybe I am just splitting hairs, but I think these terms are much more descriptive and accurate.

Tags: godless

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To which James M. Martin responded:

A message from James M. Martin to all members of Gay Atheists on Atheist Nexus!

I agree. "Godless" is a term applied to free-thinkers of all stripes by our arch enemies, people like Ann Coulter, who actually wrote a book called *Godless.* It is conservative newspeak for atheists, agnostics, &c. and is a Luntz-type invention meant to cast us in an unfavorable light. It is redolent of the casting of pro-abortion folks as "pro-death" since, obviously, that is the opposite of "pro-life." I think Claire meant it tongue-in-cheek, but it implies that we are lacking in something. "Less" always implies lack. But it is Claire's decision to stick with it or change it.
No problem here. Delete away!
Hang on, is it ok to move it or do you want me to delete it? I can't delete the email discussion you started.
With most movements, we disempower our opponents by taking their insults and embracing them.

An agnostic on Atheist Nexus must be on the godless end of the agnostic scale, that is, he is not a theist with a little bit of doubt, he is an atheist with a little bit of doubt.

I don't see a difference between the word godless and deity-free except that deity-free just sounds wishy washy. I would prefer to stand proudly in front of a theist and answer their accusation that I am godless with a proud 'Yes, what of it.' From this platform I can counter-attack their accusation that I don't know how to be good without god or what ever crap they're gonna throw at me next. Correcting them to the term deity-free, with my tail between my legs, achieves nothing.

Godless, to me, has the connotation of spotless, guiltless or odourless. When they say I am godless I agree because I was lucky enough not to be born without their stupid sin in the womb and all their bronze age baggage.

Without wanting to attack you or your idea, we've got bigger fish to fry than semantics.

We are here to form a community and to define ourselves in a world that just wants to call us names. If you want to call yourself deity-free, go for it. You could start a group...
Until (or if) we can get the group moderator function changed to an active member, there is no way to change the group information and title anyway. Just adding yet another gay group further adds confusion. I've asked again today if we can get the moderator changed to an active member. We'll see what happens.

I have no problem with godless and kind of like it. "Godless, to me, has the connotation of spotless, guiltless or odourless." - sounds like new laundry detergent! Not bad!
I was thinking more along the lines of Buz the Bear starting a group dealing with wanting to be called deity free. The whole thing seems a little off topic for a gay atheist group anyway.
I don't get these messages, as I have turned off the option to receive messages from A|N (other than official business). Too many people were abusing the "send message to all" function in too many groups, as well as on my friends list.

Deityfree sounds good to me.
The "ungay". Love it! Reminds me of the undead. But isn't that why we gays invented the word "straight"? Well, not invented it, but made it work in this way as applied to hetties? "Straight" is quite pejorative when you think about it, summoning up images of dull old, and not so old, fogeys with the wives/husbands and 2.4 kids and the car and the 9–5 job and a cute little house in suburbia, doing the school run every day and going to church on Sundays. A number of gays could well be like this in these days of civil partnerships (UK) and gay marriage (some European countries and some American states), and same-sex adoption. And some straights, obviously, are very gay-friendly, often very street, often more unconventional than many gays are. But I do love "ungay"!
We used to jocking refer to them as non-gays.
Buz the Bear, I like the way you think.
Good points all with a little humor (ungay) too.
Chuck

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