Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Howard S. Dunn on February 17, 2010 at 2:29pm

I'm fine with self-determinism a more accurate, less baggage ridden term than free will. And, despite my railing against absolutist claims as not being empirical (they aren't) - determinism is well-supported by strong induction.

I have often said that nature of illusion itself is difficult to categorize as 'deterministic' - it gets a little whacky to suggest that the specific ways we misinterpret reality are precisely determined by the variabels in the causal gestalt. Nevertheless, we certainly act on, and therefore, affect the causal gestalt going forward based, in part, on our adherence to illusion. God certainly does not exist - but belief in gods certainly does, and this has a huge effect on the shape of human culture and activity and, therefore, our environment as a whole.

Illusion, imagination, speculation, misinterpretation, delusion, partial comprehension, etc. are all part of the causal gestalt. But will there ever be a way to precisely predict the nature of any of these abstract effects which, in turn, become literal causes?

Permalink Reply by Atheist Exile on February 17, 2010 at 6:25pm

Hi Howard,

I'm not sure but I think, by "strong induction", you're referring to determinism being a logical conclusion based on causality. That's certainly a strong conclusion. In fact, it's a law of nature. One can hardly go wrong by adhering to a law of nature. Science has done quite well for itself by adhering to nature.

So when faced with pervasive empirical evidence, from experience, of our self determinism, we can toss out the evidence and proclaim self determinism to be an illusion . . . or we can seek to explain how self determinism can coexist with causality.

First we need to define what we mean by free will . . . which is why I've switched to the term "self determinism". It's simply the ability to choose our own paths in life. Self determinism means that we are simultaneously slaves and masters of causality. Slaves, because our choices are confined and defined by causal factors. Masters, because our imagination is one of those factors.

By applying our imaginations to causality and estimating potential futures, our predictions are thrown into the mix of causal factors. Imagination is an effect (reaction) of the brain. It's part of our human intelligence. So when our heredity, experience, education, circumstances, etc., exert their causal influence on the brain, there's another causal influence also exerting it's influence: imagination. Imagination gives us a temporal advantage over causality that allows to keep ahead of it and to be prepared for causality when it arrives. This ongoing process determines the causal paths we take into the future.

So the determinists are right after all: everything IS determined by causality: including our self determinism. However, I doubt that humans will ever be absolutely predictable. We're complex systems, interacting with other complex systems, living in a world that is, itself, a complex system.