Don't let this happen. Sign the petition and let as many people as you can know:

http://pol.moveon.org/smithbill/splash.html?rc=homepage_splash

Daily show take on the subject:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-february-2-2011/rape-victim-a...

 

Rape is already one of the least prosecuted crimes- less than 2% of CONVICTED rapists serve time even though most women (1 out of 3 women reports a rape in her lifetime- most scientists believe 70% of rapes aren't reported so just imagine how many women are really being raped and how often and ugh how many men must be rapists.)

 

This is not because we cannot house rapists in prison this is because we do not believe rape is a serious crime as a culture. 8 out 10 black men are in prison for personal marijuana use (even though white males are significantly more likely to use marijuana 8-1 when compared to black men they are not imprisoned for the same crime at comparable rates.)

 

About six month ago a male Californian judge said on HLN we should "legalize rape because it's not a real crime and if we ever want any babies born rape is necessary." I can't believe American is becoming such a misogynist country- things have been getting worse for women over the last 10 years. I truly thought when I was a child I would see legal equality for women in my lifetime now I doubt it will happen in the next 100 years. By legal equality I mean the ERA- full human rights for women- the same ones people of color enjoy. 

 

To not consider rape at least the second worse crime is just a way of creating a way of terrorizing women so they can be controlled and kept in a second class status. Rape isn't in the 10 commandments so it doesn't count. Rape is the only crime where we blame the victim. No one ever asks why a white man wore that expensive suit when he got mugged- no one suggests he was asking for it. In many ways rape is worse than murder (as a behavior) because you can accidentally knock someone over and they could die hitting their head wrong but you can't accidentally have your penis fall into someone vagina. I guess in a strange way that judge was sort of right. How can we ever have consensual sex if the person straight women are having sex with has more legal and human rights? Isn't that then the same as statutory rape? Funny that only 50% of American women will ever experience an orgasm... it couldn't possibly be because most women are being attacked in the vagina!? No it's that women are less sexual than men- um ya. Sorry to digress but the subjects are sort of a mobious strip.

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asharu, I have know many people with autism, from mild Aspergers to severe autism.  My undergraduate degree is in Behavioral Psychology, and worked for five years in social services with mentally handicapped adults.

Do NOT try to claim that your own diagnosis of Autism is such that it makes you incapable of telling a lie or fabricating falsehoods.  I'm not buying that for one second.

Wow do I pity them that they would have to deal with someone who doesn't even know the meaning of the word compassion or that there are different types of people in the world. You will be the worse psychologist the world has known. I'd love to know what school you are part of so I can sent a copy of your behavior here to your professors no credible psychologist would endorse your behavior here. You are filled will anger and poison- it is possible to treat people with respect and realize everyone here is not a scientist and we are each just trying to make the world a better place. No I think you must be the liar sir, no one would be like you if they know basic psychology- your patients will be committing suicide left and right. 

 

And no I'm not claiming I'm not capable of lying I'm just saying it makes about as much sense to me as cutting my feet off to make it easier to tie my shoes.

asharu, Allow me to educate you for a moment, about debate, and about Atheism.

1). It is NOT my responsibility to disprove your fanciful statements, any more than it is an atheist's responsibility to disprove the existence of God.  It is your responsibility, as a supposedly responsible critical thinker, to supply support for your claims.  That said, I did research many of your statements, and found NO SUPPORT for ANY OF THEM.

2). "I heard someone on some cable news program claim they heard someone else say it" is no more valid proof than "I read it in a book written 2000 years ago by someone who heard the story from someone else."  If you base all of your opinions on what you hear on cable news shows without bothering to fact check yourself, then you have a serious credibility problem.

You say in your response: "If you read closely I did not say 70% of rapes aren't reported I said many scientists say they think it could be up to 70% not reported- their conjecture not mine."
Really?  Read it closely again yourself.  You said "MOST scientists believe 70% of rapes aren't reported".

You did not say "many".  Not five.  Not ten.  Not a hundred.  You said MOST.

You did not say "could be", nor "up to".  You gave a hard 70% figure.

These are claims you will need to support, so read your own statements please.  Preferably before you post them.

I am not even going to address the dozens of new claims you made in your reponse to me, all of which are equally distorted.  For simplicity sake, let's stick to your original claims instead of spinning off on new ones.  In fact, lets just deal with ONE SINGLE CLAIM.  Your first one: "less than 2% of CONVICTED rapists serve time".

You are either the originator of this lie, or the perpetuator of it.  That makes you either dishonest or foolish.

According to the U.S. Department of Justice (http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/ascii/vfluc.txt):
"Additionally, the analyses found that most convicted
violent felons were --  
* detained from arrest through conviction
* sentenced to incarceration upon conviction
* sentenced to a prison term of 10 years or more if
convicted of murder or rape."

According to: "Sex Offenses and Offenders: An Analysis of Data on Rape and Sexual Assault" (http://www.mincava.umn.edu/documents/sexoff/sexoff.pdf)
"For rape defendants sentenced to prison, the average term imposed was just under 14 years.  About 2% of convicted rapists received life sentences."

So I challenge you Asharu.  Either provide support for your claim, or at least provide a source for it, or admit that your statement was blatantly false.  Then I'll be happy to move on to examining your next statements.

 

P.S.  Please note:  this is how research is done.  This is how facts are checked.  This is how arguments are supported.  And it took me all of two minutes with google to come up with those figures.

First of all we never qualified what the term 'rape' meant which was the entire point of my post! Which you'd know if you'd gone to the links. What exactly is consent, what gets to be counted as rape and WHO gets to do the classification- clearly we know who you think gets to choose the definition- MEN.

Second I could easily say ALL sex between a man and a woman in society without an ERA is RAPE which makes my figures extremely low in that case. Many feminists hold this opinion.

 

"...all of four minutes," YOU KNOW NOTHING about autism then if that's what you think- LOL!!!!!!! Nothing in my life takes 4 minutes- I can't even brush my teeth in that time. I frigging think in pictures and have to translate them to english sometimes it takes me hours just to remember simple words, sometimes I have to call friends, sometimes I have to go through each word by first letter in the dictionary until I finally find the word I was understanding as an abstract visual term. Shouldn't you know that?? I was abused as a child and severely isolated so I didn't speak until kinda late so grammar and language are extremely difficult and hard for me. Words don't mean the same thing to me as they do to you. There are many different severities of autism. Read some Noam Chomsky to learn what happens in those cases.

This is not college so I do not have to meet those standards- when I was in college I did and was always on the dean's list- it's been 13 years since then so those abilities are mostly gone and I do not think I should have to be held to the standard of writing a term paper because you need more places to steal your papers from. This is for my friends on this site, not for you, so kindly take your standard and shove it up your sexist tight anus- who knows maybe you'll get a diamond out of your trouble. Seriously change your degree because you REALLY don't get it at all. You behave like you're mentally disturbed- I guess you'd have to be to be attacking some random person with mental problems on the internet for 'not being good enough' to post a link that no one sane would object to. Maybe you should buy some tickets to the special olympics and you can tell them how they are doing everything wrong too. Maybe you can appoint yourself grand wizard of oz and demand no one with dyslexia, a stroke, or anyone who endorses ebonics can post here unless they believe the same sources as you and present them as some sexist 19th century man decided was the 'proper' way to do things.  I also don't think the proper way to do research is to 'google' LOL. You are a gift to this planet. You must go to phoenix online schools for that to be valid. There's no way you're in psychology, you're right to call me a sucker for believing that one. You only believe one style of thinking and validating the world is acceptable. That's gonna be a real problem since your major is about learning the opposite of that truth. The most important quality in a scientist is humility which you have none of. No science can come from narcism that's called propaganda. 

 

I did provide my sources you need to actually read what I write I guess and they are more valid than google lol.

I am a professional artist my role in the world is to bring attention to HOW we think about things it is the scientist's job to be anal and until we have 50% women scientists excuse me if I don't believe your data. Maybe you can get a bunch of crystal meth cooks to do research on how crystal meth affects people. They'd know best right? And they certainly wouldn't have any reason to down play the results- or maybe they don't even see certain behaviors as bad just like some scientists might have tolerance for behaviors that are a little rapey. Look at yourself you expect people to lie so you frame reality to validate your viewpoint. 

 

What is this 'argument' you keep saying I need to support? I was never making any argument so I'm completely lost on that. So you agree with republicans that rape only counts if you have broken bones? I seriously never thought anyone here would believe that so I was never making an argument in the first place I was saying sign the petition. Do you believe I made up the petition is that what you are saying? Are you saying it doesn't deserve to be signed? Or are you just saying only people who relate to information in a scientific way are allowed to voice concerns about feminism- hey that's a really great why to exclude almost all female feminists! You did a good job of distracting people from the point with personal attacks.

 

I think you are confusing how patriarchy does research in science with how a bunch of FEMINISTS choose to chit chat on feminist atheism. There is a section for people who want to talk about science you should go there and stop abusing this forum with a different topic. This place is not suppose to be a debate which you'd know if you followed the posting guidelines for this group. This is what the guidelines use to be for this group. http://derailingfordummies.com/ 

 

Science is just a way to try to find truth it is not truth itself. If you never agree on what the question is in the first place how can you supply facts and figures or even have a debate?? My 'debate' was never a debate but a question on the very definition of rape- using CNN and HLN's facts and figures as a baseline of what I believe to be moderately true. The resources you quoted don't include many forms of rape many feminists believe in. It only counts the forms of rape males believe in and the couple of women THEY hired. You believe in religion which is why you shouldn't post anywhere here and your religion is patriarchy. We do not allow people who are religious to post on these forums because it is distracting so why do we let misogynists? To think that man, informed by male religion, gathers and formulates arguments is the only valid way to discuss things here is sexism. Until women have access to change procedure women don't have equality and all those organizations are suspect. Like I said before respected scientists 'proved' a positive correlation between low IQ and bra size- if this were the 1950's you'd be screaming at me with that data. It's called abstract thought, try to develop it. I know you love your science I love science too but to believe it is infallible (or even close to reality at this point when hairy apemen with erections are in the driver's seats) is highly ridiculous and is a form of god-worship. 

 

You are not my professor and as Adam Savage's T-shirt says I reject your reality and supply my own. Imagine! You don't get to define how the feminist atheist site is run! You don't get to force your antiquated rules here. That must really get your male privilege in a bunch. Art therapy was my minor so I too have a degree in psychology as well so I know its history and it is highly anti-feminist- do you count this as rape cause I do: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/shrinkwrapped/201102/vibrators-...

 

These scientists followed basically the same rigorous research methods you believe in. It is only personal bias and the belief in the male as god that makes it so you can't see what everyone else sees- we are primates, primates are pretty stupid, superstitious and easily distracted by erections and SELF INTEREST. It hasn't even been the blink of an eye in relation to the span of human evolution since we believed these things. How can you be so blind as to believe 'the now' is somehow a special time when all science is right? Did we jump the shark and I missed it? If science doesn't embrace abstract thought as well as the literal then there's no difference between it and religion especially if it carries the conceit of one approach to ascertaining reality and truth.

 

Basically you just have a much much narrower sense of what rape is than I do. You just count less rapes- maybe it's cause they didn't wear any underwear or they asked for it. So I ask you what is your SELF INTEREST here in choosing a narrower definition of rape? Could it be you have a dog in this fight? Unless you're a virgin, gay or live in a country with an ERA a lot of women might think you're a rapist. If one's behavior might be viewed as violation the best way to continue the behavior without getting in trouble is to change what people count in that category. 

 

It is not my job to pervert what I believe to uphold your religious argument- because what else are you implying here other than the fact that there can be some source that is infallible? This is a place for you: http://www.antievolution.org/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi

So, what about his objection to your statement about the 2% incarceration rate of convicted rapists?  Where did you get that figure?  I don't see a response to that.

2%... 6%... the point is the percentage is very very very low.

That's still not 6% of convicted rapists, which is what she said.

 

Even that 69% seems a little ... off.  What the heck is the explanation for the other 31%?  What reason does a judge give for not giving any punishment to a person convicted of a felony?

The 69% is absurdly false.

Neither does this list of percentages account for the number of false rape reports, which range from 5% (women's advocacy groups) to 40% (police statistics).

Typical Feminist-think to automatically assume that every male accused of a crime is guilty until proven innocent, and that women are incapable of lying about such a crime.  They can, and do, frequently.

LOL HAHAA how did I ever take you seriously. This is some joke obviously. I really am a sucker! Yeah 'feminist-think' as if we have meetings under the light of the full moon where we stir our boiling cauldrons and sing Joan Baez. Now that's some reliable data!

asharu, are you claiming that women never lie about being raped?

Please, no rambling monologues.  A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.

Bruce, do you have any statistics about how "frequently" women lie about rape? And if so, how is this data gathered? If it's based of any time someone is acquitted of rape, that isn't very accurate. Being acquitted of a crime does not always mean that the accuser of the crime is lying, especially with the burden of proof on the accuser, with rape in particular often being one person's word against another's.

 

People lie about a lot of things. I wonder how many discussions of theft include whether or not theft victims "frequently" lie.

 

 

Yes, I referenced some of the sources for false rape accusations, at both the high end and the low end, on this post:

http://www.atheistnexus.org/xn/detail/2182797:Comment:1107523

Kanin's study is arguably the most accurately conducted, and in fact only counted instances where the accuser actually admitted that she lied.  It's biggest flaw, as a study, is that the sample size was small.  So extrapolating the 40% figure to society as a whole is not supported until such time as the research is replicated.

But ironically, the internet meme that TNT666 posted here, which is designed to exaggerate rape figures, actually seems to support Kanin's study.  This meme actually cites rape accusations, rather than convictions, and operates under the dishonest assumption that 100% of rape accusations are true.  It then cites a conviction rate of 58%, meaning that 42% of accused rapists are not convicted.  That number is mysteriously close the Kanin's stat for false rapes.

It is undoubtedly true that people lie about theft.  But the difference is that nobody claims that nobody lies about theft, while it is frequently claimed that women do not lie about rape or sexual assault, or domestic violence for that matter.  It seems as if there is a politically correct taboo surrounding raising the possibility that a women might lie about such crimes.  Also, when a person is accused of theft, some sort of evidence is needed.  Whilst in a charge of rape, or sexual assault, men may be convicted solely on the verbal testimony of the accuser.  And lastly, I'm not aware of the facts and figures for minor crimes such as theft being so frequently and purposefully exaggerated as those for rape.  For these reasons, it is perfectly valid to raise the issue of false accusations in any discussion of rape statistics.

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