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How Does Feminism Avoid Cutting Out Men?

I've never lived in a haven of free thought, and gender issues are one of the greater problems I encounter. Although college has been better... at least, somewhat... I have one class that is distressing me. Just today they sidetracked on an offhand discussion (yes, even the teacher) about how long women take to get ready and blah blah blah.

Naturally, this makes me want to jump on the desks and hurl ninja stars at all of them. Luckily though I'll have the chance to take revenge when I speak on feminism (its a speaking class) and change all of their lives forever (any ideas?).

But, although I encounter this bullpoopy all the time, and many of us do... so do men. And maybe this is just me speaking, but it seems to me that when a female speaks of feminism and equality, at least in a true professional setting, that is acceptable. Yet I feel that if a man were to voice similar complaints, he would be laughed at and not taken seriously at all. Okay, so that happens to me too. But women seemed to have earned this "minority" status, and it's almost as if it's not acceptable for men to make the same complaints.

Women work all the time now. And if she chooses to live at home, that's fine. If the man does the same, he's a freeloading deadbeat.

I remember reading a story in the paper about two young men raped by a married woman-- oh wait, not rape. What did they call it? Inappropriate conduct, or something of the sort. We downplay the idea of forcing sex on a man. It's not as bad. Men don't have "feelings" after all. How could a man refute sex? That's silly!

The term "feminist" is female-centric but it made total sense at the time of the feminist movement. Women wanted equal rights to men. We still have to fight to be treated like equals-- and that's what feminism is about, is equality! But it's not just about women anymore.

As much as it pisses me off that women are supposed to wear dresses on formal occasions, men don't even have that choice if they want to be socially accepted. As angry as I am that I'm seen as being weaker, emotional, and naive, a man absolutely has to PROVE that he is not those things. He has to push the tears inside himself, he has to deny himself the right to feel anything and act like someone he's not until he knows nothing else but the stereotype that someone else coerced him into being. What he can express, is anger. That and lust, I think.

I don't think feminism is contrary to this at all. I think the ideas behind feminism are perfectly suited to both men and women. But I think that we don't push for male equality in the world today. Sometimes we say "women are equals" (which is true, but sounds like it applies strictly to women), when we mean to say "we are all equals". And like the speech I'm going to give, how do we convince a man that we're on his side too?

Am I just insane? I guess I just feel like feminism should seem like it's strictly a female thing. We believe in gender equality. That includes women. That includes men. Right?

Tags: equality, feminism, men, women

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Amy Whelan on September 16, 2010 at 1:44am

Third wave feminism is all about gender equality; Not "girl power" or anything like it. It also focuses a lot on drawing attention to "alternative gender states" and the trans community. Basically, we feminists are trying to abolish gender roles that affect men, women, and people outside the gender binary.

Here's a great article about third wave feminism. Click me! Definitely a must-read. Hopefully it'll help you in your speech on feminism! Good luck!

Permalink Reply by Jezzy on September 16, 2010 at 2:09pm

Thank you! My sister is a philosophy major and learns plenty about feminism, but I have to do everything on my own. I appreciate it!

Permalink Reply by Jezzy on September 19, 2010 at 4:01pm

I was talking about that very thing with Darly the other day! I mean, what is "girl power" and how does it differ from regular power? He's taking some feminist literature class and he's afraid of being attacked by man-haters, so I had to link him that page.

Permalink Reply by Rob van Senten on September 16, 2010 at 6:19am

@Jezzy,

Men and women both need liberation from gender roles that are forced upon us by our societies, men are not exempt from being forced to play a stereotype role. What is worrying me, and apparently you too is that it is somehow less accepted for men to live outside of the box.*

* at least here in the Netherlands.

Permalink Reply by TNT666 on September 16, 2010 at 9:10am

Many men in Québec have acquired the sometimes pejorative nickname of "pink men". Because of the growing numbers of men willing and even desiring to "stay at home and raise the kids" while their female partner is in the workforce, willing to do dishes and laundry, willingness to be "metrosexual" and be admired for it, willingness to be "nice", "caring", "non-violent". These men have adapted to a certain degree to women's lib. But they are far from being a majority. So many men are fighting back against feminism by saying "but we too have been hurt" "just like you". BULL. Women, as a GROUP, not just as individuals, have been wronged, it has been institutionalised, that is a whole other ballgame. There may be societies where heterosexual men are "repressed" into male "orthodoxy", but heterosexual men in Canada and the USA CAN chose non-orthodoxy.

Permalink Reply by Jezzy on September 16, 2010 at 2:07pm

Oh that's bizarre. You say "metrosexual" and I think of my Montreal-buddy, and low-and-behold we're talking about Quebec. :P

This friend kind of understated (and was almost bored by) my feminist comments, but then when I'd give him a scenario he was like, "That HAPPENED?!"

Canada must be more sane or something.

Permalink Reply by TNT666 on September 16, 2010 at 9:03am

Sometimes I think men didn't even need women or feminism to push themselves out of the loop. I have not met more than 2-3 men in the last 10 years who do not belong to the religion of professional sports spectator of spectacle.

I get really annoyed when men try to downplay (or appropriate under the "equality" banner) the wrongs which have been thrusted onto and into women over the millenia since religion took over society. We are not equal, we are different, and wrongs need to be redressed, and the wronged need to do it for ourselves, because wrongs are never corrected by the perpetrators themselves unless under great durress.

Male raped by a woman possible in only 3 contexts: drugged to force erection, anal rape, or paedophilia. I have known a few guys who had less sex drive than me and IMO a man cannot be "vaginally raped".

In Canada (and I think the USA) one needs only look at the growing gap between female and male salaries to realise men are still very much on top and gaining ground. The americanisation of Canada (in the sense of waves of recent immigrants who choose NOT to integrate is causing an increase in sexist repercussions: from muslim girls murdered by parents for not being virgins and not wearing hijabs, to generalised pressures to control all aspects of female reproduction.

Unfortunately, through immigration and "equality banner" women of North America are loosing ground not gaining any. So if modern men want to take refuge from modern women, let them be cut out and go watch their sport religion on the television. Women have a long way to go.

Permalink Reply by Jezzy on September 16, 2010 at 2:15pm

I believe this context of rape was erection (or so I assumed), I think there was liquor but no drugs. Still, a man can be aroused without giving consent, right? "No means no" type of scenario. Even in some rare cases of male-on-female rape the woman has experienced orgasm. It's still rape.

I'm just musing though. Just a thought, a curiosity. I know very little about these things.

Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on September 26, 2010 at 6:21pm

Yes, some women have had orgasms during rape. Men can have arousal, either from being aroused by the person or just being force-stimulated, and can still mentally not want to have sex. Sure it is less likely for a man to be overpowered by a woman, but there are also gang rapes, and other ways to restrain someone. Female to male rape probably happens less, but it is also even less reported than male to female rape, which is already underreported. The attitude toward ftm rape is totally sexist. The fact that it is a debate over whether it's even possible, and the usual reaction of "like a man would ever not want sex!" is a variation of "she wanted it, she was asking for it" and is saying that all men want sex from all women all the time. There is also a double standard for male victims of domestic abuse, which is really quite ridiculous b/c on one hand "you are never supposed to hit a woman" (not even in self defense) and on the other "what, you couldn't fight off a girl?" I agree with World Walker in that rape or domestic abuse don't need to be politicized over whether they are done to males or females. Either way it is equally wrong and victims should be treated with the same compassion.

Permalink Reply by World Walker on September 16, 2010 at 2:26pm

I don't think there is a need to ignore how wrong rape is done to any human while also acknowledging that males still dominate. And further, individual men do not necessarily dominate but we live in a society that favors us in many ways excluding the right to wear a dress. Where men are discriminated against it's wrong. And the same goes for where transpeople are discriminated against. And minorities. And atheists. The fact that all over the world cruel things are happening to women doesn't vilify every man. It certainly gives us a real reason to find a way to better balance gender, individual respect, and social expectations. I totally agree that there are way too many female victims. And it is impossible to merely chalk that up to sexism although sexism is surely a component. Hijabs as an example clearly adds a religious/cultural component.

Next, sex drive and rape are two different things. Wanting sex isn't the same as wanting sex to victimize one of the participants. I agree with TNT's final point. There is a long way to go. And there are a lot of obstacles I don't face that women face on a daily basis even in my community.

In response to the OP, the ways in which sexism hurts men are real and they hint that the underlying solution isn't going to be about balancing the penalties of being a gender, it's going to be about understanding that each of us is a human being who didn't really choose their gender. The respect due to another person is due to each one equally. We can't shortchange their experience because it's inconvenient.

It has been my experience and hope that a lot can be accomplished simply by voicing our opinions because personally, what it took for me to look out for a woman's perspective was a woman's voice. It's not my job to think for women proactively or destructively as much as it is my job to listen as I would with any other person. And it's not as if the sexist behavior I've participated in was done intentionally to reduce an individual. It takes time to wake up and find a better way to behave. It definitely helps to have places to discuss what we want to turn into.

Permalink Reply by TNT666 on September 19, 2010 at 4:53pm

this is a misleading set of numbers. When discussing wage parity between men and women it is of little use to compare different jobs, it's like comparing apples and oranges. The wage gap which is truly of interest is the wage gap for similar tasks. This is the one that is increasing.

In addition, to say the "gap" is decreasing because male-dominated sectors are loosing jobs is sheer ridicule. When the economy redreseses these jobs will redress also, it is but a temporary situation which has absolutely nothing to do with the "wage gap".

Permalink Reply by Rob van Senten on September 20, 2010 at 9:30am

Women have a long way to go.

If you look at the social status that women have, even in developed countries it is in no way comparable to the social status of men. Women are still being treated like crap for simply being a woman and men are still assumed to be better without having to prove their abilities. It is something that I come across on a regular basis and most of the time it makes my blood boil.

What we need to get rid of in my opinion is stereotypical gender roles that are being pushed upon men and women alike. The problems for men, in my opinion, are still a lot less then that of women. The problem however lies in the fact that society (religion, tradition etc.) still forces gender roles upon people, which enhances the perceived differences between the sexes.

"We are not equal, we are different, and wrongs need to be redressed, and the wronged need to do it for ourselves, because wrongs are never corrected by the perpetrators themselves unless under great durress."

Men and women are not the same, but we are of equal value. We are different, but not in our humanity. Wrongs do need to be redressed by society as a whole, not just by the wronged. If you were to divide society into the "wronged" and the "perpetrators" you would first have to find out who those people actually are... seems like an impossible task unless you don't mind to generalize people based upon their gender.

"if modern men want to take refuge from modern women, let them be cut out and go watch their sport religion on the television."

Nice stereotype! How lovely.