Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jonel Burge on September 6, 2012 at 2:49pm

There's also a bunch of asshats who have come up with Atheism-

Yes, really.

http://atheismminus.com/

Because Social justice and like, equal rights are baaaaad.

Clearly the civil rights movement was wrong. And needs to be repealed. for atheism.

<facepalm>

Will also point out that there are atheists that are women, atheists that are gay, and atheists that are black.

And social justice affects them. but not white cis hetero males. But clearly their opinion is the only one that matters.

Permalink Reply by Sushi Q on September 7, 2012 at 10:10am

Yeah, so...I'm not going to give them airtime. These losers just prove our point exactly. Fuck 'em, ignore, and let them whine in their little corner of stupid. We already know there are lots of men who hate us, ya know? Yawn!

Permalink Reply by Anu R on September 7, 2012 at 4:15am

Surly Amy(of the Skepchicks) is making A+ themed ceramic art/jewelry, as a fundraiser for the Secular Student Alliance and Skepticon later this year. Go check out her store, and raid her lovely collection :)

http://www.etsy.com/shop/surly

ETA: Just grabbed two of my faves of the A+ pendants...can't  WAIT for them to arrive!  I'm a bit soured on the RDF's Out Campaign red A symbol (especially considering Dawkins is being something of an asshat right now, securely blind in his privilege of being sexist), so chose not to get any of the A+ ones that look like that.

Permalink Reply by Sushi Q on September 7, 2012 at 10:20am

Thanks for posting this! I love my Surly-Ramics pendant (bought it from Amy in person at an American Atheist conference, had been planning to get one for a few years)!

Yes, Mr. Dawkins is a serious disappointment. In SO many cases, people like him continue to be rewarded even when they are dickishly sexist and clearly disrespect women. That so totally needs to stop. Sexists need to be social pariahs the same way as racists are now.

Completely agree, we need to have symbols/logos that don't incorporate his (I always thought it a bit anemic anyway).

Permalink Reply by Justin Murray on September 9, 2012 at 11:24pm

 

Hey all,

 

I have been following the stories of abuse of women in the atheist movement for a while now. It is appalling and, of course, is an attempt to exclude women from the debate/movement.

 

I think I have always been Atheism plus, but never had a label for it. I tended to think of myself as "atheist and" (atheist and feminist and pro-choice and pro LBGT and concerned about social justice and many more...).

 

I have been reading about A+ and humanism (and any apparent differences). I have never been a fan of the term "humanism" (being a trained sociologist, who is allergic to the idea of human nature).

 

Can anyone tell me what they think are some of the key differences between A+ and humanism?

 

Justin.

Permalink Reply by Sushi Q on September 10, 2012 at 10:48am

Justin, thanks for your thoughts!

For me, the key difference between the two is that humanism doesn't necessarily explicitly recognize women as human. Believe it or not, in many spaces, we are not actually treated as if we are! It's ridiculously shocking, really, but it turns out that women still cannot safely assume we are included as either fully equal participants or beneficiaries of *any* "do-gooder" or human rights movement.

For "humanism" to work for women, we have to be included as humans first, and it turns out that quite simply, we're not, so it still must be explicitly stated that we are.

To women, I say: do NOT assume that you are included in any "good" cause either as a giver or a receiver unless it is explicit that you are. If the acknowledgment of you as a person is only implicit, it is very likely that you'll be cheated of time and money spent toward the cause, which knows that you believe you're a full partner while it tacitly considers you cattle.

In other words, it's business as usual: men cheat and lie to get what they want out of you. (Proof: the truth comes out when you speak up about being treated like the cattle they see you as. Cattle with energy, money, and time they can take from you.)

Justin, I know this isn't the answer you were looking for. But the BS about "atheism+ is unnecessary because we have humanism" is the same as "we don't need feminism because we have equalism (or humanism)." It is a clear attempt by men (yet again) to take over the conversation and tell us that we shouldn't have what WE need.  Until humanism is explicitly feminist in its support of women, it's NOT ENOUGH.

 

What is so ridiculous about these men (and some women too) insisting we are already "covered" is that their obvious hostility toward women proves that we're not! That's aside from that fact that WE are the ones who get to say whether we feel a movement is supportive enough of us. Are they acting "humanistic" toward us? Not a bit.

 

Permalink Reply by Justin Murray on September 10, 2012 at 6:46pm

Sushi Q - great post. Thank you for that.

I agree - some men in atheism are acting as though women being active in the movement in some way devalues their input.

That is garbage - it is not a zero sum game.

But I agree - the product of this purposeful action is to exclude/marginalise women (it may actually be the intention of those actions too, but that is hard to know). We have seen that in the retreat from the blogshere of Blag Hag and the continued abuse of other bloggers (I have read about this happening to Rebecca Watson and Surly Amy).

Permalink Reply by Justin Murray on September 10, 2012 at 6:53pm

Actually, I might need to clarify the above statement:

 

Intellectually, the involvement of women in the atheism movement is not a zero sum game. In fact it is the opposite: the wider the range of speakers on atheism the better we can get the message out and the wider our epistemological range (we can cover a wider range of topics and understand them more thoroughly than before).

 

However, if an individual woman is a better speaker, writer or thinker than the men, that can be seen to be a threat.

 

It is a threat to book sales, speaking appointments, followers on social media and social status (fame).

 

This may be one (although not necessarily stated or conscious) reason why women are being targeted, especially those with a high profile.

Permalink Reply by Steph S. on September 10, 2012 at 12:00am

I need to find out more about this. It's new to me. I will check out the link.

Permalink Reply by Justin Murray on September 10, 2012 at 12:15am

Note: there has been talk about the differences between Atheism+ vs humanism in some podcasts (The Good Atheist special episode 107 and Ask An Atheist, "Bad News" episode published on 25 August 2012).

Permalink Reply by Steph S. on September 10, 2012 at 12:30am

Cool I have those podcasts and I will listen to them. Thank you Justin.

Permalink Reply by Kacie Tsao on September 11, 2012 at 1:48pm

I should have checked in with this group before joining the Atheism+ discussion on the site forums...  The anti-A+ stuff I read has left a lingering bad taste in my mouth, and this at a time when I had finally convinced myself that super-douche atheists were a dying breed.  Not so, huh?

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