Pat Condell certainly has a few.


Burqas are a bad idea. I find them to be a running away from personal responsibility by running from identity--what with my inability to tell apart two similarly-shaped women wearing burqas of the same color. The crude interchangeability with other women that its use sorta provides to its wearers is just as irrational as the "God is #1; I'm nothing without His love." proclamations by Jesus-freaks.

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Well, lets be honest with ourselves. Do muslim women actually choose to wear the Burka? I seriously doubt it, at least not in any meaningful sense. But, some still may and if this is the case then no, the burka should not be banned. Actually, I don't think that banning it to begin with is even the right course of action because it will have the undertones of seeming fascist if a city or government tells women what not to wear.

But lets get real, like Pat says we wouldn't be discussing this issue if we evil westerners, especially our strong willed women, openly displayed disgust for the clothing. I don't understand where this ascetism even stems from. Yet, it is there in Islam and Christianity. I personally cannot stand the sight of a doscile subserviant woman because it breaks my heart and offends my sense of how I would like a woman to be (confident and assertive).
lets be honest with ourselves.

To be honest, one must agree with your position?

Do muslim women actually choose to wear the Burka?

Yes, some do. In Afghanistan, there are areas where the Taliban still holds sway. Being seen without a burqa is dangerous. Poor women may wear them because they only have one or two well-worn dresses. I've also seen women write that throwing on a burqa just to run a few errands is a lot easier than all the time-consuming primping that most cultures require for women to be socially acceptable.

I don't think that banning it to begin with is even the right course of action because it will have the undertones of seeming fascist if a city or government tells women what not to wear.

It would have direct overtones of control. Prohibition doesn't work. Tell people who already have to deal with racism or prejudice against them because of their religion that they can't practice as they wish, and resentment just results, pushing many to "close ranks" and become more religious. I grew up around the time the Catholic "ghetto" in my hometown was breaking up. The US had long been anti-Catholic, and it wasn't until after JFK was elected that many Catholics started playing a lot looser with their religion.

Wearing a burqa has nothing to do with asceticism, and most religions have ascetic sects or movements.

But lets get real, like Pat says we wouldn't be discussing this issue if we evil westerners, especially our strong willed women, openly displayed disgust for the clothing.

This doesn't make sense to me as written. Would you mind clarifying?

I personally cannot stand the sight of a doscile subserviant woman because it breaks my heart and offends my sense of how I would like a woman to be (confident and assertive).

Again, I don't think that because a woman wears a burqa, you can assume she's subservient and docile. People make all sorts of concessions to the dominant culture, or even just to the dominant ruling class so that they can get on with their lives.
Well, then I suppose the real question is what is "choice" in this scenario. You may very well be correct that "some" women prefer the burka over more formal, and time consuming, dress. And they would have no opposition if they freely choose to wear it because, as is already established, in their culture it is the expectation. However, what do you think would happen if a woman decided not to wear it?

In my opinion this is not actually choice, it is an ultimatum. And in this regard women are not really choosing to wear the burka, it is being forced on them by the threat of violence.

I would like to make a couple of concessions. One, it is overtly sexist of me to assert that a woman "should be" anything and now I wish I had chosen my words more carefully. Secondly, as Westerners we can never have any real insight into Middle Eastern culture without living it for ourselves. It makes us seem arrogant and pretentious to discuss this issue without forming a relationship with muslim women first. And perhaps this is where Europeans decide that non-intervention is the best case policy. But then again, what was all that fighting for freedom and against fascism about during WWII?
But then again, what was all that fighting for freedom and against fascism about during WWII?

I think you just responded to your own comment. Multiculturalism has its drawbacks and one is standing by quietly watching while totalitarianism goes about its merry way. And thats what most Middle eastern cultures consist of. The horrible treatment of females is just one of many human rights abuses. Banning will not work ultimately .
I am trying to push a synopsis of a discussion about veiling and how not veiling gives the muslim male the 'right' to rape but so far have had no luck. It describes within the article the dynamics of the muslim family. It also has a sideswipe at the intellectual elite within the feminist movement with a psychological analysis of their motives which I don't think the female feminists will like and even I as a male find disconcerting. They do however fall within accepted psychoanylitical tenets.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/Read.aspx?GUID=473928E3-18E1-4...
Banning the burqa doesn't stop women from wearing them. It keeps those women who choose to wear them indoors, further separated from society. Any feminist who thinks that banning the burqa or the head scarf is going to liberate muslimahs who choose to wear them is fooling themselves. It's sort of like social conservatives passing a law outlawing public depictions of homosexual relationships, even non-sexualized, and expecting that to eliminate homosexuality. That's not how it works.
And that video is a great exemplification of colonialism, racism, and islamophobia. I do so love when middle class white men get it in their heads to deign to tell women how to dress. For teh childrenz! Naturally. Pat Condell can fuck off.
Evolutionarily speaking, based on our common human ancestors, men fall further on the extremes (of height, age, risk-taking, athletic ability, and intelligence) and women fall closer to the median. This may be because men need to stand out to attract a mate, and women need to take fewer risks to be effective child incubators. So, while I do think there are cultural influences teaching women to not stand out, there may also be biological ones as well.
I couldn't agree with you more, Judith. There are certain fundimental human rights that should always be enforced regardless of what religion a person is indoctrinated into. And I, for one, believe that equality among men and women needs to be included as one of these fundimental human rights.

Just because some of these women have been successfully brain-washed into believing that they actually want to wear this horrendous clothing, doesn't mean we should abandon those that are wearing it out of fear and intimidation.
Islamophobia in Britain is like being afraid of the Plague in Europe in the 1340s. That is, ignoring the fact that "islamophobia" isn't a real word.

I'm really not sure if you're a deep-cover theist or if you're just one of those strange people that I'll never understand who militantly try to keep people from influencing other people with any efforts more concentrated than being their family. When a bartender takes the keys away from a thoroughly drunken man, is that limiting his freedom of choice?

Or, let's put this in a way that'll get you riled up for no good reason: If a bartender takes the keys away from a thoroughly drunken WOMAN, is that limiting HER freedom of choice?

It's not as dangerous a decision as driving drunk, but it's dumb just the same--like all religion.

Feminism, last I heard, wasn't about expanding, without a predefined limit, the rights of women, because beyond the point at which women and men have equal rights, expanding the rights of women becomes indistinguishable from reducing the rights of men. If we always take an eye for an eye, we all end up blind.

It's supposed to be another facet of equality. It's like renewing resources: If we take from the world without limit, we end up with a barren earth and a starving or dead populace; we must achieve balance dealing with taking the resources of the earth, just as we must ultimately achieve balance between the sexes.
Gregory, how you would like a woman to be is fundamentally irrelevant to at least half the human population when they choose to get dressed.
I firmly disagree. Muslim women are forced into a mindset of subservience and the burka is a physically limiting piece of clothing which symbolizes their societal restraints. Whether it offends me or not is in fact irrelevant but the issue of freedom and equality still remains. No woman should behave in this or that manner because of what I or any other man expects or wants.

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