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Comment by LarryW on April 9, 2010 at 4:46pm

Al... Oddly, or ironicly, my wife's sisters married name is Jensen.

Comment by LarryW on April 9, 2010 at 4:43pm

Thanks, Al, I'll try that Google idea. I didn't know how Smith died. That's very interesting! At present, Mormons can become Masons. Brigham Young was a Mason as were many Mormon leaders of his day, or so I'm told. I have heard that Masonic symbols and rituals were carried over to the Mormon church service. I have wondered about this for years, just never looked into it until now. I am in NW Arkansas and surrounded by my wife's family... Her Mom, 2 sisters, 2 Brothers-in-law and 6 kids, all Mormons and all within a mile of our house. They don't bug me and I leave them alone as well. My wife has yet to join them, but you never know. At present she is a Baptised Xtian but not active. She doesn't give me any grief whatsoever about my Atheism. She is a great person. Married 40 years last Feb.

Comment by Al Jensen on April 9, 2010 at 3:38pm

Larry, Joseph Smith is reported to have made the Masonic distress signal (whatever that is) before he fell from the window of the Carthage Illinois jail after being shot in 1844 (he died of course).
Many of the Mormon temple rituals are said to echo Masonic ritual (including wearing an apron). Some of the symbols carved into the Granite of the Salt Lake City temple are purported to be masonic symbols. If you Google mormon temple rituals or mormonism, masonic ritual, I'm sure you'll find a wealth of gossip and perhaps some factual information. I was told when I was a child that a Mormon could not become a Mason and vice versa, but I'm not sure this is currently true. Keep searching. Where are you that you are surrounded by Mormons?

Comment by Rick on April 9, 2010 at 8:48am

LOL - I didn't realize that. If you don't mind I would like to add you as a friend! I like angry ex-mo's, they are fun people!

Comment by Debbie Morris on April 9, 2010 at 8:44am

two different places in the world Rick! I'm in the Emerald Isle and think mine was more angry than eloquent! :)

and glad to be of service Larry.

Comment by Rick on April 9, 2010 at 8:32am

Debbie, well put! we were typing nearly the same thing at the same time. however your post was more informative and eloquent than mine LOL

Yes Larry, as you can see from two people, from two different places in the country, the story is the same...

Comment by LarryW on April 9, 2010 at 8:29am

Unbelievable! And women accept this! The term "brainwashed" comes to mind. Was just reading this: http://www.daylightatheism.org/2010/04/the-reform-against-nature.html about the Lutheran Fundies.
I have seen that from my relatives, though. Very sad... Thanks for your time, Debbie. I appreciate the input.

Comment by Rick on April 9, 2010 at 8:29am

Larry,
I do want to say that in religious fundamentalism, you will likely see the same thing, it isn't unique to mormonism. Most of the people I know/knew, the women were highly respected. Their roles are in my opinion bronze aged, but all the women I knew were very happy in their marriage. When you are raised to be a "good mormon wife", the things that a truly independent woman might resent simply do not register.

I am what some people might call a male feminist. I abhor the church's role in lobbying against the ERA movement, I also was appalled at the push from Utah with regards to Prop 8. The church would be fine if they didn't try to stick their nose into other peoples lives and bedrooms.

Comment by Rick on April 9, 2010 at 8:23am

Larry,
Yes, the Mormon church is very patriarchal. If you look into the doctrine, it is very clear that women are of lesser value. Women require a man to "pull them through" the veil into the highest kingdom of heaven. They cannot do it on their own. Men should have multiple wives (D&C 132, it is still in the book because it was denounced through manifesto, not revelation) but women can have only one man. I could go on and on. In my old stake, you didn't commonly see women who were "subjugated" as such, but the doctrine is clear, women cannot be prophets, or hold the priesthood, they are simply put, less than man.

Comment by Debbie Morris on April 9, 2010 at 8:17am

Well based on the family proclamation, the fact that men are called the Patriarch of the home and get the final say if there is a disagreement, the fact that women are not allowed hold the priesthood and are expected to want to seal themselves to their husbands in temple ceremonies that mean that when they die and go to the celestial kingdom their husbands will become gods and they will be their wife eternally pregnant with his spirit children so that he can populate his own world to be god over...then yeah...also the fact that the young women of the church have lessons from a young age that grooms them to be "good mothers" and submissive wives... and the fact that Mormon women are encouraged to stay home and raise their families while the men work generally leaving them at the mercy of their husbands financially. What amazes me is that hardly any of them complain about it!

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