Comment by Richard Goscicki on April 12, 2009 at 9:17pm

Dallas, this forum is getting interesting. Remember the statement, humans are machines that memes have programmed and not created. Subtle difference.

Blackmore talks about language at lenght, about language being one of the most important memetic drivers of genes. The memes hop on the backs of genes and determine who gets selected.

Take the "make a spear" meme of Homo habilis. Members that learned to copy this meme had an advantage even over the big and strong. Same goes for language learning.

The point is: memes aided natural selection and became part of it, just as genes.

Comment by Dallas the Phallus on April 12, 2009 at 9:48pm

@Richard: This is interesting. I wish I had more time to read. The reason I brought up language is because I have a moderate interest in language, etymology, and the cultural evolution of language. I really hate the period we are in now, in many respects. For example, I intensely dislike the spelling of kewl for cool, and I hate the noun foodie, and the verb antiquing.

Comment by Richard Goscicki on April 12, 2009 at 10:06pm

I know what you mean. I hate majik, kwik, and other on purpose misspellings. Bad memes. Shows the power of Madison Avenue and the weakness of brainwashed consumers.

Comment by Dallas the Phallus on April 12, 2009 at 10:12pm

Yeah, I also hate Branjolina, J-Lo, and other name combinations/abbreviations like that that the media has created in the past few years. Just awful and obnoxious. I don't mind some creativity though. For example, Obama has been used for a lot of combinded words lately, like ObamaNation, or combined with various others suffixes that I cannot recall at the present moment. That does not bother me as much.

Comment by Фелч Гроган on April 13, 2009 at 8:16am

One can never underestimate the damage that can be caused by out of control memes. Author Warren Ellis has found out the hard way. What started off innocently enough as a piece of literary gross out comic relief in his post-punk novella targeting the apocalypse culture set, has spun out of control. A group of Brazilian fanboys have spawned a website, created transparent graphic templates, even have a dedicated mailbox to collate memetic mutations - one really wonders where this will end. This lunacy has got to stop.

Comment by George on June 3, 2009 at 3:45am

Dan Dennett: Ants, terrorism, and the awesome power of memes

Comment by Dallas the Phallus on June 4, 2009 at 7:09pm

That's a good lecture you posted from Susan Blackmore, George. I can't wait to read her book.

Comment by Richard Goscicki on June 4, 2009 at 10:12pm

The Meme Machine is the bible. She's great. Also catch her TED video on Youtube. I predicted temes 30 years ago.

Comment by Sentient Biped on June 4, 2009 at 10:44pm

Regarding the earlier statements about not liking re-spellings and neologisms - I have the opposite point of view.

I'm sure that language is also considered a collection of memes and is a meme itself. Language evolves, adapts to its environment, and transforms its environment.

I like the fun expressions, like "Bennifer". It's a short-hand, a commentary on the concept of a couple being joined in the cultural mindset, and a bit of a satire on the silliness of celebrity itself. The concept of combining names is a new meme, at least to me.

Meaning this only in a friendly way, how is it different from "Gaytheist"?

Evolution of language and language-related memes might be a fun topic for a discussion.

Leaders in a number of countries have attempted to purify their languages, with a variety of results. This was done in Turkey, resulting in huge leaps in literacy and essentially cultural loss of the earlier literature from the language. German and French have had attempts at re-purification or maintaining purity.

English is a combination of languages, starting with Germanic dialects, with infusions of Scandinavian, Norman/latin origins, neologistic constructions from Latin and Greek, and borrowing of scattered words from around the globe. The language has almost equal parts French/Norman, Germanic, and Latin origins (Roman conquest of Britain), plus elements from other languages.

Being a hybrid language gives English its vitality. It also makes it fun to play with.

That being said, what I do hate is Orwellian use of language to obscure and spin, making offensive concepts seem acceptable (like transforming "torture" into "persuasive interviewing" or whatever), and other manipulation. When language is used for hiding rather than revealing, then it is a problem for me.

Comment by Dallas the Phallus on June 5, 2009 at 11:22am

@Daniel: I don't have an issue with re-spellings or neologisms per se, if they are appropriate, necessary, creative, etc., but I do have a problem if they are done out of lazyness, ignorance, or just people who are not clever trying to act like they are clever.

I hate the Branjolina because it, I believe, was motivated by a specific media in an attempt to be clever, or to be the first to coin a term, or to be catchy, and it doesn't serve any real social or cultural need.

Like kewl for cool. What is the point? What is the necessity? Cool conforms to standard English pronunciation, and is similar to school, fool, tool, etc., so why change it to kewl? I can think of no other word off the top of my head that is spelled e - w - l.

As far as Gaytheist, it is obviously a combo of gay+atheist (or some have seen it as gay+theist), but that is a screen name, not a neologism introduced to change the language, or created in response to changing language. Sure I thought it was fun and clever, but I'm certianly not the first to use it. By and large, the response here to it has been positive, with several people taking the time to comment on it. I just don't think me using Gaytheist is on the same level as Branjolina.

To be clear, I am in no way against the evolution of language, and don't buy into "pure language" concepts at all.

Also, I hate the Orwelllian use of language to obscure meaning and intent as well. That is a huge subject, though, that I don't want to comment on here.

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