Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Sentient Biped on December 30, 2010 at 5:28pm

Dallas, the essay that you linked to was a great read, really thoughtful.  My own comments don't add much to it, but here goes -

 

If the animals were pigs instead of dogs, would the outrage have been the same?

Why prosecute someone for cruelty to dogs but not to other animals?

Have white people been arrested for similar crimes?  If not, then do we think that's because white people have not committed those crimes?  I suspect I know the answer.

 

One line in the essay struck me as possibly true, but I wanted to edit it anyway.   "many African Americans feel that the suffering of animals evokes more empathy and concern among whites than does the suffering of black people."  I want to add "many" or "most" before the word "whites".  Although this is a quote of what many people feel, so probably a valid description of those feelings.  I also think there is more empathy of many (any race) people for animals than for (any race) humans.  As to whether that is whites feeling more for animals than for blacks, we can probably put any racial category in both places.  But I do get what was said.

Permalink Reply by Dallas the Phallus on December 30, 2010 at 5:51pm

There is so much going on here with this issue, and to be honest, I'm not sure I know how to fully put my thoughts into words.

 

These concerns -- about where, when, and how we draw the lines that encompass our concern for life and justice -- are nothing new. In fact, it is often asked specifically in regards to animals: Why do we eat cows and love dogs?, and in comparing the civil rights and experiences of blacks and gays.

 

If we are honest, there are many similarities (and differences, too) between the experiences of blacks and gays. And if we are honest again, there are also many similarities in the way we mistreat animals and the way we mistreat humans we see as less than ourselves. I don't personally feel that pointing out those distinctions in any way diminishes the suffering of humans or any other party.

 

Also, I can say with certainty that my feelings towards Vick are in no way shaped by the color of his skin.

 

Lastly, it is not uncommon for people to extend their empathy ONLY to their ingroup. History shows that. But it seems more and more to me that people are expanding their empathy in so many ways -- to outgroups and to other species. Caring for animals (like during Katrina) does not mean that one doesn't care for humans. I just think that "animal people" tend to see animals are less able to help themselves than people are. Also, that bit about the air conditioned van going to NOLA to get animals, the fact that it had AC was just indicental. Almost every auto has AC. It's not like someone SPECIFICALLY decided to send an non-AC van for people and an AC van for dogs.

Permalink Reply by Terrence Lee Reed on December 30, 2010 at 6:02pm

The whole issue is a non-issue that pointed out how ridiculous our legal system has become. There is no justification for incarcerating someone who harms, kills, tortures or otherwise molests an animal. If such justification exists it should first be applied to poultry farmers, slaughterhouse owners and staff, etc.
I am not saying that animal cruelty should not be a crime, but that offenders should pay punitive damages and not be subject to imprisonment.
In Korea and China some people eat dogs, it helps keep you warm in the cold winter months. I see no problem with this as long as it is done at least as "humanely" as slaughtering livestock.
As for myself, I don't have a pet and would just assume be a vegetarian if I were not addicted to eating meat. If we are to imprison Vick for animal cruelty then they should imprison anyone who eats meat or wears a fur coat. I am not a supporter of PETA, but at least they are consistent. Again, there is no justification for imprisoning anyone for animal cruelty, no matter what person or what animal is involved.

Permalink Reply by L.Hunter on December 31, 2010 at 2:50pm

I too have often wondered how some can feel more empathy for animls than other human beingz. From the slave owners who loved yheir horses and pets more than their slaves to the Nazis wo cared more for animals than jews. Its amazing how we as people can do this.
I believe that Vick was a product of an environment that didn't teach anything about humanity, responsibility, empathyor compassion for others...even animals. From what I understand about his background he grew up in a poor ghetto neighborhood where the weak were stepped on. This mentality applied to all life forms where the only thing that mattered was what can I get and who do I have to step on to get it. Empathy for animals...even the weak.. is not natural an must be taught.
I believe that the difference between eating meat, wearing fur and animal fighting is cruely. Humans make animals fight to the death for their entertainment and for their food. I too disagree with wearing fur in this day and age and sometimes I have a problem with our treatment of farm animals. I never bring my kids to the zoo, because I think its cruel. My kids agree and we all feel for animals who have no say in their meager existence.

Permalink Reply by Dallas the Phallus on December 31, 2010 at 3:05pm

I too have often wondered how some can feel more empathy for animls than other human beingz. From the slave owners who loved yheir horses and pets more than their slaves to the Nazis wo cared more for animals than jews. Its amazing how we as people can do this.

People compartmentalize a lot, but I think that there are some important distinctions to be made here between people who do bad and people who do good. I did animal rescue for years, but I didn't volunteer at any people-based charities. Why? I guess because I was more interested in dogs and cats. But that doesn't mean that I am indifferent to illiteracy, or poverty, or whatever. People can only do so much, and they have different interests. There's nothing wrong with that.

Permalink Reply by L.Hunter on December 31, 2010 at 3:58pm

Forgive me for my sloppy writing, there was something wrong with my spell check. I too care deeply for animals as well as humans. I have donated to animal rescues as well as coach inner kids in numerous sports programs.

I agree that people are different and have different value systems. However there is something sinister that makes someone go out of their way to place misery upon another living being for the sake of profit or just for the fun of it. Also i find it interesting that humanity can turn a blind eye the misery to some e.g. slavery and Africans, Jews and the holocaust, Haiti, Katrina, while at the same time loving their pets and treating better than their neighbors. Its the human mind that interests me.

Permalink Reply by Dallas the Phallus on December 31, 2010 at 4:01pm

However there is something sinister that makes someone go out of their way to place misery upon another living being for the sake of profit or just for the fun of it.

 

I agree. Hunting for survival is one thing. Hunting to place a head on your wall is completely different.

 

Also i find it interesting that humanity can turn a blind eye the misery to some e.g. slavery and Africans, Jews and the holocaust, Haiti, Katrina, while at the same time loving their pets and treating better than their neighbors.

 

I don't think people, in general, turn a blind eye. A lot of money was donated to Haiti relief and to the victims of that tsunami many years back. Some people are disengaged, to be sure though.

Permalink Reply by Sentient Biped on December 31, 2010 at 4:12pm

Could it be, now, that Vick is an examption of "redemption" - not in a religious sense, but in a humane sense and in the sense that there should be a chance for people with a criminal record to prove themselves and move forward?  By concentrating on a "star", there is much more exposure of the concept of redemption, than there would be for a "regular person".  Paying attention to his story, and that he has (I hope) learned the unacceptability of his actions and is now trying to make good, might mean there is a chance for society to forgive someone who has done something heinous, and a chance for the ex-con, on release from prison, to turn their life around.

 

This is pure speculation on my part. 

Permalink Reply by Dallas the Phallus on December 31, 2010 at 4:15pm

No.

 

1.) People love to engage in hero worship, and 2.) People love to kick a man when he's down. Vick avoids number 2 because of number 1. Joe Blow will get a full dose of number 2.

Permalink Reply by L.Hunter on December 31, 2010 at 7:52pm

Vick's situation can certainly turn out for the greater good. He has an opportunity to reach many people that the general public will never be able to reach. Did his star status have a bearing on his judgment? Did he receive a lighter sentence then others may have? Who knows. However, I believe that his situation can cause others to change their views of humanity, compassion and the rights of the lesser. It will be worth it if kids from inner city and environments learn a valuable lesson from a one time felon and understand that they can turn their lives around and make a difference.