Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Chris Z on May 25, 2010 at 10:49pm

My motif for asking this question is two-fold. If someone is seriously considering adopting our position, I see nothing wrong with filling them in by using a convincing arguments. Now of course the second reason. I'm not getting married to anyone unless they share my values and "non-faith".

By the way, I'm still trying to get a pulse on this phenomena of people not wanting to attach labels to themselves. That's all a bit too wishy-washy for me.

Permalink Reply by Chris Z on May 25, 2010 at 11:44pm

Assuming a liberal non-theist rejects theism due to having a knowledge of science, I would think that it would relatively easy to convince this liberal to become at least a libertarian. This is because if they are familiar with science, economics (money flow in and out) can be easily demonstrated to them.

Further persuasion of the libertarian towards social conservatism has proven all to fruitless from my experiences. It is here where I line up much more with the conservative theists than anyone else.
I've been told I cannot have it both ways, meaning that I cannot have the gov't dictate morality and yet not dictate the economy. I beg to differ.

It is this which causes me to consider that I have perhaps more in common with the conservative theist than anyone else aside from the conservative non-theists. I am more confident in the constitution protecting the separation of church and state than it protecting us from those who would abuse the General Welfare clause.

I love listening to Rush, Glenn, Sean, Bill, Lavin, Savage, Ingraham, Prager etc. Perhaps love is a bit strong, but sometimes I do. Granted, each have things I don't like. The most obvious and apparent discrepancy is each of these people rationalizes each and every conservative principle with a foundation due to God. They tie all of their arguments to God. Their reasoning just stops dead at this point because its superfluous (extra), unnecessary, and irrational. Conservatism can stand on its own as conservative atheist writer Heather Mac Donald has put.

Now the conservative theist:
Part of me says there is not a chance in hell. These people don't accept science. Then again there are many American theists, who do believe in evolution. I don't remember the stat. As science continues to progress (the largest gains being relatively recent) it's as though more theists are caving. They are maintaining the label of their faith, yet letting go of their orthodoxy to Genesis and perhaps the other 4 books. Also, I have had a recent personal experience of meeting a conservative Christian who made the transition to our position. Lastly, when I look on the facebook group "Conservative Atheists" from time to time, I see these new members, saying, "oh my, I cannot believe I believed those stories."

As far as the liberal theist, I'm not sure. Most of the liberal theists that I am aware of are liberal Catholics. Some of these people scare the crap out of me as far as what they are willing to accept, but then again, I'm not so sure I've given enough thought about the strangeness of the other faiths (of liberals) to put this group on the pedestal I have.

Then there are the Americans who don't decide anything. They flip flop on all issues. They are the people that both sides of the Isle tend to call stupid Americans from time to time. We don't understand this group very well. We don't know if this is a group at all. It's a mixture of people who say I don't like labels (although liberals (socialists) use that line a lot as well). So I suppose these people might be young adults who aren't ready to make up their minds yet. It's also the couch potatoes. It's the people who say I just love everyone, can't we just love one another. I'm not sure. I think I've found something to research.

What about everyone else? What do you think?

Permalink Reply by Tonya Wynn on January 6, 2011 at 12:08pm

yes, but the people are the mob and mob rule is terrifyng.  Just look at how 'the mob' believes i God and other superstitions.  Controls are healthly, to some extent, in the 'free' market.  No one lives in a bubble...the mindless actions of the mob can affect your finances no matter how hard you worked to scrimp and save and study and work.

Permalink Reply by Carl on May 26, 2010 at 7:48am

I am sure you will agree with me when I say "It depends". But for statistical purposes, I would have to say it's easier to convince a conservative that there is no God than it is to convince a liberal that their politics are wrong-- not because of any moral or intellectual reasons, but from a motivational standpoint: Conservatives fear chaos, liberals fear emptiness.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080924124549.htm
If this study is accurate, then it tells me that conservative fears are based in logic and reason, but liberal fears are based in feelings and emotions. The only way to convince a liberal that they are wrong is to come up with some way to make them feel less empty inside without left-wing ideology.
The best way to get a liberal to move to the right?
If the liberal you are talking about is female, then if you marry her or get her pregnant she will feel a compulsion to shift to the right on her own, how much of a shift is variable, but I've noticed it in the past. Of course it is not true in all cases, but statistically women shift to the right when they achieve emotional stability.
If the liberal you are talking about is male, give him a lot of money. This works on women too, but the effects are less pronounced.

So basically, if you want to change a liberal's mind on politics, you have to either fatten their wallets or get them pregnant. And even then the shift may not be enough for the full conversion.

For conservatives, the job is easier and less expensive as it can be based in rational debate and logic. However; in my opinion it is better to spend your time clearing up the practical imperfections of the conservative theist instead of clearing up their mystical belief system. The concept of God is a convenient and useful tool: anything you are not interested in can be lumped into God's domain. Afraid of dying? Injustice? Imperfection? Don't worry, God will take care of it for you, just focus on living a good life. For people who are practical about life and don't want to have to worry about those things, God takes care of all the unknowns that you either can't answer or can't be bothered with.
Now if you can find me a conservative who is curious about life, not afraid of death, and can accept that life just isn't fair and never will be; well that person is probably already an atheist. If not, they are a perfect candidate.

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Permalink Reply by Chris Z on May 26, 2010 at 11:07am

Talk about speaking of the truth. There are so many great things here for me to think about. Thanks.

Permalink Reply by Tonya Wynn on January 6, 2011 at 12:13pm

The reason  women shift isn't so much EMOTIONAL stability, but financial stability, plain ole stability, and the need to see their offspring stable.  Plus, many women have been brainwashed that they aren't feminine good women if they don't agree with everything their husbands think.

Permalink Reply by Tonya Wynn on January 6, 2011 at 12:01pm

A  conservative thiest would be easier to persuade to to most anything, because they are generally unquesioning followers/sheep.  Just tell 'em God or Billy Graham or Reagan said so.  I;ve tested this theory before by quoting Bible scripture and could turn around a theist's opinion quickly and get them muddled. 

Permalink Reply by Michael on January 13, 2011 at 1:57pm

On the whole, I think it's easier to persuade a conservative theist to become an atheist, than it is to persuade a liberal atheist to become a conservative.

The reason is pretty straightforward: while it's a somewhat involved process to clearly demonstrate the flaws in liberal thinking, it's quite easy to demonstrate the blatant contradictions in religion. Essentially, religion is the more vulnerable position of the two. 

 

Of course, this assumes that you are talking to someone whose attitude is sufficiently reasonable to be amenable to persuasion.  The nut cases on both sides don't qualify. Fortunately, the majority of people don't seem to be quite as hard-line about things.

Permalink Reply by Andrew on May 6, 2012 at 6:59am

I find them equally difficult to persuade but in my experience conservative Christians are more amicable debaters.