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Freewill To Debate

I have noticed that most theist that confront me about my beliefs tend to argue that god gave us freewil. I dont think this is a solid arguement because I dont think there is freewill. I think the freewill arguement is weak for many reasons such as

1) It contradicts the term omnipotent.

2) Its questionable as to when would we be given this freewil.
If if is before birth why would a baby choose to be deformed or die at birth? If it was after birth why would people have no choice against a social Identity?

3) God does not seem to have freewill himself. He has to be present all the time with no sleep. He has to know everything. What if god wants a vacation?

I want to know if there are atheist who think mankind has freewill.

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by gerard26 on August 27, 2009 at 3:12pm

I, too, look at this freewill question the same way as you do, freewill given by a supernatural entity is a nonstarter the whole premiss makes no sense. Theist try use this logic to score points for their side but,it dosen't work it only reveals how weak their arugment is.They can't explain "evil" in the world and the freewill arugment, no matter how hard they try, fails completely at explaining theodicy.

Permalink Reply by Gwen on August 22, 2009 at 6:44pm

If if is before birth why would a baby choose to be deformed or die at birth? If it was after birth why would people have no choice against a social Identity?

First of all, your first example here about the baby is not a choice for or against freewill. It is like saying that walking down the street and having a wall fall over on me is an example of free will.

The next example is much better.

I believe that we have free will to an extent. I (personally) don't think free will is an all or nothing, few things are. I can choose to do my job and take care of business. I can choose what I eat for dinner tonight. I think I have a modicum of free will although I cannot choose my sexuality, I can choose my sexual expressions. I cannot choose my social identity, but I can alter it and mold it to an extent.

I don't believe in the existence of 'gods' so your third point is irrelevant as far as I am concerned.

Permalink Reply by RealType on August 22, 2009 at 7:26pm

I am just removing the gestation idea

Permalink Reply by Jim Mccall on August 22, 2009 at 7:42pm

How is choosing something "freewill"?
My computer makes choices all the time does it have freewill?
What is freewill?
Every meaningful definition I've heard violates causality. I don't believe causality can be violated.

Permalink Reply by RealType on August 23, 2009 at 10:52am

Thats a solid point.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mccall on September 3, 2009 at 9:25am

Computers are programed to make choices. I could just as easily say you don't make choices, you execute things based on your programming.
Can dogs make choices? Can a fish make choices? Can you define choice in a way that includes those things you think can make choices, and excludes computers? Is Data from Star Trek a person or a machine?

Permalink Reply by Robert H. on October 27, 2009 at 10:51pm

Brother Kole,

I have to side with Brother Sean regarding one of the best pathways to get Christians, especially Black Christians, to at least back off from their biblical inerrancy position, and that is to challenge them to actually read the book, but read it from the perspective of a biblical textural critic. I engage in this type of dialog with the faithful as often as my time permits. I push them back by making the same evidentiary demands regarding their claims (such as, that their bible is the inspired word of their God) that they themselves would make when confronted by believers in a different God(s). This weekend I'll post some of the questions that I employ in combating Caucasoid, Negroid and Mongoloid Christian acolytes.

The Tidewater area of Virginia, like many places south of the Mason Dixon line, is infested with a variety of aggressive Christians, regularly engaged in hurling their texts at non-cooperators like us. Here are a few of the questions that I ask:
- Before we begin this evening's edification, can you tell me where I can locate the origin copy of this book (also known as an autograph)? I'd like to compare the original to this copy that you are using, just to make sure that your bible, which was manufactured in a factory (employing the latest scientific technologies), is an EXACT word for word translation of your Gods original thoughts. How are you so sure that the translators were 100% accurate? Do you speak and write Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek or Latin fluently?
- Did any of the original "authors" of the this book speak English?
- How are you; why are you investing so much of your limited energies in the promotion of an alleged, divinely inspired text if you cannot verify its authenticity?
- Oh and please don't try to play the faith card. If you or any of your Christian brethren had access to an original copy, you'd be doing a "Rodney King" upside the collective heads of people like me!

I'll continue this later Brother Kole. The point is, the average, garden variety Negro Christian has probably read Ebony, Jet, Iceberg Slim, etc., but they have not read their holy book. Part of the strength of our position is in knowing the text better than they do. Perhaps one could invite them for a leisurely walk or a cup of coffee, so that they can try to explain the contradictions, inconsistencies and imbecilities found throughout their bible...in a loving way, of course! For the most part, they are not going to be persuaded by reason and rationality but we can make them aware of the growing number of sisters and brothers that are going to treat Christianity with the same reverence and respect that we afford chittlins', pigs feet and hog maws...those food stuffs may have gotten our ancestors through some rough and difficult times but that doesn't mean that they should remain dietary "saviors" and the same goes for the religious "pigs feet!" Please excuse the grammatical structure and any spelling errors, I'm usually not up this late.

Peace, respect and critical thinking,
Rob
negrononbeliever@gmail.com
blog: The African American Agnostic

Permalink Reply by Jag on September 25, 2009 at 2:39am

lol that's a great idea

Permalink Reply by nonone de plume on September 16, 2009 at 7:35pm

Sartre. the noted existentialist and atheist. believed in free will. But one must define his concept of free will before one can debate such Ideas. As far as choices, and that is what some believe free will to be, the making of choices, because we have no choice but to choose, and those choices that we make are what defines us. constitudes free will. The debate in philosophy is whether one believes in Determinism verses free will. I think the idea that there is no god does allow for free will, as if there is the christian god there can be no free will.

Permalink Reply by nonone de plume on September 17, 2009 at 7:02am

"But of course that is all based on the concept of free will being our ability to "choose". Based on that concept of free will it makes more sense, but ultimately I'm still not buying lol"

Is this of your own free will? LOL :)

Permalink Reply by nonone de plume on September 21, 2009 at 10:17am

"if my "ability to choose" is free will yes...but as i've said...I'm not buying that concept. it's a reinvention of the word"

Well, that is your choice.

I don't think the term " Free Will" is a reinvention because Fee Will can mean different things to different people and any one of them are correct, or incorrect, according, and depending on ,to what one defines and believes "Free Will" is. I think as long as there is consistency in their definition than people can debate honestly and not codify any one definition as to what free will is. I think it requires some crtitical thinking. After all, I believe we are discussing abstracts as oppose to concrete and tangible thoughts. I do not believe it is an absolute, Free Will"- isn't why we have debates and why this forum exist? Nor does one have to buy any one definition because it isn't someting that is being sold. We each have to decide for oursleves.

Do you think that people have the ability to learn and do things different if the exact circumstances appears again?

I have two more quesions Just becasue we understand something, and agree on what ever it is we understand, does that understanding predicate a universal result? Can individual behavior be predicted with a high degree of accuracy? I ask this question because of the reference of Soft Determinism

Permalink Reply by nonone de plume on September 23, 2009 at 12:22pm

"My reason for not "buying it", is also because I believe that since the original idea of "free will" was probably conceptualized during a time when we thought the world was FLAT and our understanding of how the brain works was miniscule (if not absent lol) compared to today, it will never be explainable technically without having to losing it's orthodox meaning or application. I haven't researched much on the origin of the term "free will" but my money's on some kind of literature on the subject of god giving us "our ability to choose" (if I'm wrong please point me in the right direction). This is all magic and is a waste of time to debate technically IMHO."

I don't have time to debate this right now, I hope to so in the future, but I can suggest reading Dannial Dennett : a so called Bright, on his books on consciouness, and research some of the latest understanding of how the brain works by neuro-scientist.

I thought that religion and magic went hand in hand, and yet here we are debating magic.LOL

Understanding has to do with everything since we are talking about actions and the ability to choose those action freely -I would guess. I did mention that this debate was about abstracts, the metaphyscal. So yes, you are correct if one is arguing technical, but I was speaking metaphysically and the importance of that can only be judge by each indvidual.

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As far as generalization, the answer only required a simple yes or no. Anyone can supply their own own specific to demostrate and elaborate their point of view. It's just a way of exchanging ideas.

No offense, but for me, that is one of those funny questions that don't matter....You couldn't even solve this question with a time machine lol? Its the kind of question that drifts into the realm of the kind of silly "do you believe in destiny" kind of Oracle of The Matrix stuff that you can find on that "The Secret" DVD that's circulating around the theist community right now :-

No offense taken. But out of curiosity. isn't religion and the whole god thing just as silly. so why come to such a site and reply to any post here, and tour the religious site? Would not it be a waste of time to you?