Both my wife and I are both ethical Vegans, We both find in disturbing how few people within the atheist community don't see the dietary indoctrination that surrounds us in the same way that they do Religious dogma. In some ways the two are often very related.....

 

Discussion please:

 

cheers

 

Vegan Ape

Tags: animal, australia, ethics, nsw, vegan, vegetarian

Views: 863

Replies to This Discussion

Well good for you and yr wife that you both decided to choose vegetables over eating animals, however the relevance between Atheism & Veganism in my opinion has absolutely no relation!        Atheist people do not believe there is a supernatural being who created the universe but do believe in Evolution, where we evolved into the homo-sapien / human being you see today, which has evolved over millions of years hunting and forraging for various foods, many of which were other animals inclusive of canabilism in all ancient cultures. Now just as it's yr choice (for whatever reason) to not eat meat, it is also an Atheist person's choice to enjoy the taste, texture & nutrition which is derived from various species of animals in their diet. Now whether or not it is needed or not? is another argument completely, where I concede in modern times that we probably don't have to eat animals, and although I expect the animals to be treated with some respect, I know that in many cases there are dubious operators/farmers who do not do so, however I personally (and presume many others) actually like eating different animals, so whatever the high horse you are trying to preach from, it is an entirely different argument & as I said earlier has nothing whatsoever to do with people's deluded perspective of gods & religion. 

An excellent reply Chris.  I also wanted to reply to Vegan Ape's unfounded assertion that there is a connection with religious dogma.  As athiests, we are, almost by default, evolutionists.  Our evolution includes a significant carnivorous component. But another thought for Vegan Ape, if humans stop eating cattle sheep and pigs, they would largely disappear from our world. Rather than saving these animals, vegatarianism could destroy them.

Bruce Walker

 

 

Evolution selects for reproduction not longevity ........We have no carnivorous component in our recent evolutionary history. We do have an opportunistic omnivorous component. This was opportunistic by all accounts and b12 retention times are indicative of this.

 

cheers

Thanks for your support of animal rights.........ave a great new year!!!

chris, you say, "I expect the animals to be treated with some respect".  I find this statement either one of total ignorance of the reality of the meat industry, or of an icy dishonesty.  You are right that atheists come in all stripes.  Still, most of us have come to our conclusions about the non-existence of gods, through our attitude of skepticism, our bent for research, and our demand for proof.  Only when our lust for blood and flesh cause us to suspend our skepticism, can we trot out these tired, unscientific, and unethical excuses for the harm we do to others.  As atheists, we throw out a belief in god, but some of us find it convenient to retain the religious attitude that all the other creatures on earth were put here for our use.

WELLL  SAID!!!

As we are, we are evovled to eat a variety of things, from insects, game, fish, eggs, dairy through to grains etc.

 

Although grains have only become such a large part of our diets in the last 10,000 years, since the agricultural revolution, and it would seem that some of us are less able to be agriculturalists, not coping well with grains - celiac etc.  Some of us do much better on a hunter gatherer diet - of meat, fish, vegetables and a few fruits in season.

 

I know some ethical vegans who eat oysters, because those 'animals' don't have a central nervous systems - the family is much more healthy for it.  Oysters have many trace minerals that are not present in foods from the land.  Especially Australia, that is short of certain minerals in the soils.

 

I was brought up vegetarian, and myself and my kids have retarded growth due to it.... I was vegetarian until I was 21, then became vegan, as my enzymes production broke down, and I could no longer digest milk.... at 30, my baby died at 17 weeks....  

 

It was a big shock to me and I realised that my diet was killing me....  the doctors found from my blood that I had more anti nuclear cells that I should for my age - and that my body was ageing significantly more quickly than the average.

 

It took me over 2 years to change my diet - It took me about 18 months just to get over my psychological aversion to meat, fish, eggs and milk.  And it was really hard eating for another 18 months, as I pushed myself to try all the new foods - meat, fish and eggs....  I started with dairy, then eggs, then fish and finally meat - 

 

There are groups for recovering vegetarians.

 

Just be careful being vegan - it's not ethical to be vegan - we are human animals, and have evolved to eat many things - we can tell this by comparing our digestive systems - looking at our teeth, stomachs and intestines.

 

 

Any science based vegan has regular blood tests and takes b12 injections. As for trace minerals a multivitamin is all that is needed as well a vitamin D supp as in australia it is suicidal to get D from the sun. Most humans should avoid milk as it is an allergen to high percentages of people. On the basis of evolution I suspect we have not consumed dairy milk for very long, Although As stated prior " Evolution is not a good way to determine a healthy long term diet, It is a great way to learn what food may be of interest but will not indicate its long term health effects. We must use a different approach if we wish to survive into our 80's and beyond (for most people).

 

Cheers

I don't have any stats on this - but when I worked as a care worker with elderly people who were in their 80's and beyond - I didn't meet one vegetarian or vegan - they all ate the standard meat and two veg type diet.

people of that age were even more indoctrinated into animal diets than us....just try to get them off butter or even to take medicine...its difficult. However maybe the fact that they were about to fall off their perch and in aged care is indicative of the poor health they were in as a result of that diet....I know of a vegan skydiver in his 80's so there you go.....

You know it isn't unusual to be dropping off your perch in your 80's and older....

http://abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Products/837F34B2BD71C14DCA2578...

1.1 DEATHS, by ICD-10 CHAPTER LEVEL - 2009(a)(b)

Number
Proportion of total deaths
Median Age
Standardised Death Rate(c)
Cause of death and ICD code
no.
%
yrs.
rate

Certain infectious and parasitic diseases (A00-B99)
1 821
1.3
79.3
7.5
Neoplasms (C00-D48)
41 952
29.8
75.1
175.6
Diseases of the blood and blood-forming organs and certain disorders involving the immune mechanism (D50-D89)
428
0.3
80.0
1.8
Endocrine, nutritional and metabolic diseases (E00-E90)
5 867
4.2
81.0
24.0
Mental and behavioural disorders (F00-F99)
6 522
4.6
87.4
25.2
Diseases of the nervous system (G00-G99)
5 906
4.2
82.3
24.0
Diseases of the circulatory system (I00-I99)
46 106
32.8
84.7
183.4
Diseases of the respiratory system (J00-J99)
11 049
7.8
82.5
44.8
Diseases of the digestive system (K00-K93)
5 011
3.6
80.2
20.5
Diseases of the skin and subcutaneous tissue (L00-L99)
383
0.3
84.7
1.5
Diseases of the musculoskeletal system and connective tissue (M00-M99)
1 078
0.8
83.0
4.3
Diseases of the genitourinary system (N00-N99)
3 405
2.4
85.5
13.5
Certain conditions originating in the perinatal period (P00-P96)
656
0.5
0.5
2.9
Congenital malformations, deformations and chromosomal abnormalities (Q00-Q99)
632
0.4
1.0
2.8
Symptoms, signs and abnormal clinical and laboratory findings, not elsewhere classified (R00-R99)
1 045
0.7
64.7
4.4
External causes of morbidity and mortality (V01-Y98)
8 884
6.3
51.8
38.6
All Causes
140 760
100.0
80.8
574.8

(a) Causes of death data for 2009 are preliminary and subject to a revisions process. See Technical Note: Causes of Death Revisions and Explanatory Notes 28-32.
(b) See Explanatory Notes 73-84 for further information on specific issues relating to 2009 data.

(c) Standardised Death Rate per 100,000. See Glossary for further information.

"You know it isn't unusual to be dropping off your perch in your 80's and older...."

   agreed but through change to our diets it needn't be so predetermined and I would suggest the absence of Vegans in the care facility you mention could ever be a good or bad sign of Vegan health.

Notice also that the largest category of death goes to the circulatory system of which one of the primary causes is linked to the saturated fats in animal products. Any doctor would agree with that...this is hardly evidence in favour of meat and dairy consumption. 

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