Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Loren Miller on July 25, 2011 at 11:41am

I think I knew that the Nazis were bad guys back in third grade (I had a classmate who was fascinated with the Bismark!).  I'm not so certain I knew about the London blitz or Auschwitz back then, though.  Would be interesting to ask my daughter (23 years old, works as a TV producer for a station in NC) what she picked up on and when.

Permalink Reply by Kelly M on July 25, 2011 at 12:24pm

I think that is a normal fascination for a young boy.  I mean, Nazi's are the perfect bad guys....they have cool uniforms that look evil, and the SS even had skulls!!  My son has also had a fascination about WWII in general.  He's studied their uniforms, guns, tanks, ships, aircraft, and plays online games like call of duty set in the WWII era. 

My son knew, maybe not details, but in general about "the final solution".   In fact, when he was 8 he was invited to the National Young Scholars Program in Washington DC, and while we were there he insisted, in fact was adamant on going to the holocaust museum.  I warned him about what he might see, but it's like he HAD to bear some type of witness to it, to affirm what he suspected.  To solidify the idea in his head, of not only what can happen, but what did happen when people give up to blind conformity.  He told me he was glad he went, it was hard to see, but he said he felt like he understood things better, in fact my mom and I cracked up because he said "I feel wiser now..." as we were walking out.  Funny thing is, I think he was the wiser for it.   Kids are a hoot!!! 

Permalink Reply by Julie Carter on August 15, 2011 at 6:48pm

This is similar to the dilemma some scientists had while working on the Manhattan Project. Oppenheimer, for one (there were many). And plenty of other scientists in all kinds of fields, I'm sure (not to mention the movie Real Genius!). I think most of the time, the scientists think that the advancement of science is more important than anything else. (I'm a scientist, but not a research scientist.) And somehow they are able to compartmentalize (as you've already discussed), because their interest is in the science, and not in how it's going to be used. There are lots of scientists today who have to worry about how their findings are going to be used when put in the hands of others, particularly politicians.

 

I just read about one who would fit this, but I can't remember the details! Dammit! Oh! It was the guy who developed the Psychopath Test. He didn't want people to get a hold of it, because he was afraid that it would be used against people, to stigmatize them and whatnot. He wanted it only used as a psychological research tool, and he was afraid of how it would be utilized in the real world. It's in that book The Psychopath Test by Jon Ronson. His name was Bob Hare. Here's the article I read about it: http://tinyurl.com/3djwtqc

Permalink Reply by Kelly M on August 17, 2011 at 9:13pm

That was very interesting Julie!! Thanks for posting it!  This is a huge debate for sure, and it sometimes makes my head swim.  I think we just need to work really hard on the cure for greed, and malevolence.  Then we won't have to worry about how scientific discoveries would be bastardized to exert control or terror on the world.  I think in the Oppenheimer case, the issue was that we needed to get it developed before the Germans then Russians.  What I think we fail to see as Americans, is that even though we feel we are the good guy, the rest of the world sees us as the one and only country that has pushed the nuke button.  How would I feel about this if I wasn't an American?  I don't know honestly.......this whole thing could drive you insane if you think about it too long...no??  lol.  Again thanks for that article....great read :)

Permalink Reply by Apeman Jim on August 17, 2011 at 9:47pm

I never met the guy so I cant know.  Even if I had, would I have asked the right questions to get to the heart of who he was... again I am at a loss.

We can only speculate based on what we have learned of his life, but never on the basis of his experience as a human being as to what he was about.

 

Permalink Reply by Kelly M on August 18, 2011 at 6:35pm

Yeah I know, and this is all part of the curiosity for me.  I do wonder what he was about.  No doubt he was brilliant.  I'm not a big fan of the good versus evil type thing, for obvious reasons, but motivation interests me a lot!  I don't expect everyone to share my views of morality or right and wrong.  I think it's more of a dark side issue.  How far would one go to make their discovery or build their dream?  I am a humanist, so I may have a warped sense of what science should be about.  I know I can count on my fellow atheists to keep me grounded, and rational when it comes to those notions ;)

Permalink Reply by Brandon Lee on September 25, 2011 at 8:56am

von Braun was a scientist, and there for morals and norms should not be considered when looking at his work.  We are not to hold scientist accountable for the moral conundrums that their work might produce.  They produce and need the to freedom to produce with out considering all posibilities of what may happen with their results. He advances ayrodynamics five generations.  To hold him accountable for the Germans producing rockets to rain down on England would be akin to holding Alfred Nobel accountable for explosions over 19th, 20th, and 21st century.   

Permalink Reply by Kelly M on March 4, 2012 at 2:24am

Not too sure I can totally agree with you on this point.  I think that a science is not a get out of jail free card when it comes to doing the right thing.  It's not right to have slaves, and therefore shouldn't use slaves as test subjects or for labor.  I think there is a line of ethical behavior when it comes to science...no matter what discovery you are on the brink of, it CAN NOT excuse or warrant unethical behavior.  That is how the world would LIKE to view atheists.  The fact is, Von Braun used enslaved Jews to build his rockets.  He allowed his rockets to be weaponized and indeed modified them to become such.  I realize he could have been coerced.  I was simply kicking around the moral implications, and at what point does rationalizing bad behavior by scientists become the same apologist bullshit we hear coming for the church for it's past transgressions upon humanity?  That's all I'm looking at.  As an atheist, I really HATE hypocrisy.  I don't like it wherever it is.

Permalink Reply by Chris G on March 6, 2012 at 12:34am

I agree that science isn't a get out of jail free card (even though the U.S. did it with him and other Nazi scientists through Operation Paper Clip as Clarence points out). Josef Mengele learned a lot about how much stress the human body can take with his experiments and he didn't personally kill, injure, or cause bodily harm to anyone.

Permalink Reply by Clarence Dember on February 5, 2012 at 3:14pm

Because of your allusion to "Operation Paper Clip" the program that brought many key Nazi contributors into the United States intelligence and Space programs, this mp3 narrative by a ex military contractor and Army Veteran is added to your question of propriety.

http://files.hoza.me/Information-on-Iraqi-Dinar-etc-2Feb2011.mp3

Permalink Reply by Kelly M on March 4, 2012 at 2:14am

As always I thank you :) Information is always my friend!

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• Next ›
• Page