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Comment by Joseph P on January 10, 2011 at 10:33pm
  • i don't think that article convinces me that stealing is moral. if there are poor and people genuinely care about them they will help them and not force others to.

Never in sufficient quantity, and there are so often strings attached.  Do you really want the church to be the primary supporter of social welfare?  They're the second highest contributor, after government, and they always provide it as a means to force-feed their religion to the poor.

 

I thought you were an atheist.  You seem to completely miss the fact that damned near all of your political ideals will benefit religion.

 

This is the biggest thing that pisses me off about atheistic Libertarians.  They never think through their ideals to discover the likely end-result.  Government should be results-based.  All they have are unsupported assertions of what is the best way to govern, with neither a justification for their ideals, nor a plan for implementing those ideals.  They're also woefully ignorant of the fact that their policies will bring back the days of the 1800's, of the Robber Baron corporations and mass poverty.  They would turn the US into a Third World country.

 

  • also wouldn't the guarantee of a handout provide an incentive to not produce?

No.  When your religion is drilling into your head from birth that you're supposed to go forth and be fruitful, and damn the ability to pay for them, then you're going to end up with lots of children ... who will grow up in poverty, be more ignorant, and be less useful to society.

 

  • why is aunt winnie having children?

Because she was probably a slave.  Even if not, sex is built into us by Evolution.  Without contraception, you're going to have children, particularly back in those days.

 

  • am i immoral for not wanting to provide for her or is she immoral for having children she obviously can't provide for?

Her children were sold into slavery.  I think you missed a great deal of what the article was saying.  She was an old, black woman who had no family and no social support to help her in her old age.

 

  • (she probably had the kids because of some sort of tax deduction along with thousands of others, causing more poverty as resources can't stretch to reach all of the children people are having to reduce a tax burden, then we correct the first error of government entanglement by creating more government entanglement in the form of social welfare. lol im just theorizing now, but i don't buy the argument that poverty is inevitable and therefore needs to be fought with more government.)

Heh, no, you're not theorizing anything.  You're making up pure bullshit and making yourself look foolish.  There were no tax credits for children, back in 1896, never mind much earlier than that, when she would have had her children.

 

Go back and read the article again, man.

 

  • i have a problem when i see a fat american woman with like 12 kids making no effort to be a productive person while i work 12 hour days and pay for her incentivized bad decisions.
How does that have anything to do with the article?
Comment by Patrick on January 10, 2011 at 10:31pm

i know that aunt winnie predated the new deal. i have no idea when the government started subsidizing having children i was merely "theorizing" that the new deal was a government response to problems created by the government. actually im sure that government interference caused the problem and they tried to fix that problem with more government interference.

 

i did read the article. 

 

i fucked up on who plagarized who. my bad. 

Comment by Christopher Baughman on January 10, 2011 at 10:24pm

I strongly suspect you didn't even read the first page of that article, Patrick.  Or if you did you didn't digest it well enough given your rant about the income tax & federal tax deductions when the charity account of Aunt Winnie was from 1896 - 1899, thus predating the federal income tax, the Square Deal, and the New Deal. 

 

Also if plagiarism happened then it would mean John Kennedy plagiarized Glover Cleveland's comment, not vice versa. 

Comment by Patrick on January 10, 2011 at 10:17pm

@joseph

agreed. sounds like he is plagerising kennedy's 'ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country' quote. fuck asking what i can do for my country.  

Comment by Patrick on January 10, 2011 at 10:14pm
too much? that's probably why im single. lollorskates.
Comment by Patrick on January 10, 2011 at 10:13pm
i thought yism yasm was the perfect gift.
Comment by Patrick on January 10, 2011 at 10:06pm
glenn beck doesnt represent anything but stupidity. he's a mormon for crying out loud. mormons are some of the worst in my book.

i don't think that article convinces me that stealing is moral. if there are poor and people genuinely care about them they will help them and not force others to. also wouldn't the guarantee of a handout provide an incentive to not produce? why is aunt winnie having children? am i immoral for not wanting to provide for her or is she immoral for having children she obviously can't provide for?

(she probably had the kids because of some sort of tax deduction along with thousands of others, causing more poverty as resources can't stretch to reach all of the children people are having to reduce a tax burden, then we correct the first error of government entanglement by creating more government entanglement in the form of social welfare. lol im just theorizing now, but i don't buy the argument that poverty is inevitable and therefore needs to be fought with more government.)

something is appealing to me in the idea that a man can walk the earth and be free to make his own decisions and freely exchange with other free men so long as he doesn't hurt others or impede on their freedom. there is no use of force against me or tyranny over me that makes me give the sweat of my labor to another except if i so choose. it's the antithesis of totalitarianism. some people are 'dealt a bad hand' and luckily most have a natural urge to help those people, including me. if charity is left to the individual then charity can be more targeted; my dollar isn't paying the salaries of thousands of bureaucrats before a small percentage of it reaches the recipient. the mass state charities are giant bureaucracies that give to some that i would support giving to and to some i would not. that is where i feel i am being stolen from.

i have a problem when i see a fat american woman with like 12 kids making no effort to be a productive person while i work 12 hour days and pay for her incentivized bad decisions.
Comment by Joseph P on January 10, 2011 at 9:50pm

""We used to be here. In fact, Grover Cleveland has this excellent statement. In 1887, President Cleveland said, 'Though the people may support their government, the government shall not support the people,'" Lehman responded."

 

Wait, what?  Holy crap.  He's actually holding that up as a statement of virtue?

Comment by Christopher Baughman on January 10, 2011 at 9:00pm

Here, read this.  It breaks down what life was like for people prior to the New Deal coming to fruition.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/29/the-poorhouse-aunt-winnie_...

Comment by Patrick on January 10, 2011 at 8:43pm
i would give a lot more to charity if i wasn't forced to give money to state charities... which, interestingly, are inefficient compared to private charity.
 

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