Do men exist that do not want and do not have children?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Brian Ditter on February 20, 2010 at 5:19am

Responding to my own post BECAUSE !!
Our computer keyboard froze up & we had to restart the computer.
This is why the above post ended abruptly with typos. Sorry !!!!!!

........as with any large organization the skill levels of the teachers will follow a bell curve; some excellent; some inferior. Most will be average. This will always be true. Certainly we need to remove the poor ones; but You CANNOT expect the vast majority to become 'excellent' teachers.. Anyway, it is Good Authors who inform; it is inquiring minds that learn. ALL learning involves physical changes in the student's brain. so-called ''Teachers'' at best can often facilitate the learning process & environment and provide important feedback...but it is the Child who must do the hard work, which is an active, NOT PASSIVE, process. A student can learn from dead people by READING/ better: STUDYING the thoughts/ frozen speech of a knowledgeable author [or wathing the video equivalent]. Caring parents & cultural valuation of education are Vastly more important than ''good'' teachers. Asan example, most mastery of most subjects requires the learning of NEW words/terms/definitions/vocabulary....If a student fails to do this work [prepatory reading assignments] prior to a class lesson with a teacher [individual work/responsibility], the student is NOT going to understand what the teacher is saying anyway !!! Learning to read is critical, & it snowballs......by the way, math is a subset of english & applied logic /critical thinking skills......'algebra' is merely condensed english statements..... food for thought.
So I put it back in your court....HOW do you plan to force/insure these children/ the next generation get ''EDUCATED''with respect to the issues you believe important for your long range vision ???????
Don't forget that a large # of teachers are in fact ''religious'' themselves... and do quite alot of censorship in our classrooms [covertly.] themselves !!!!check out reference book dealing with the 100 most censored books in American schools & libraries.We in fact can & should reproduce ourselves to help produce future atheists. Certainly that is NOT by any means the only measure, nor Have I implied it. Read my other posts here for addl discussion relaing to this sub issue. Nor have I ever implied it is anyone's duty to go that route. IF you reread carefully, I addressed the ''responsibility'' of those Not reproducing genetically to do their utmost to spread positive memes to as many of the next generation as possible[opinion] & not sit back with their heads buried [somewhere]behaving as self absorbed,overly self indulgent arrogant narcissists.
Failing to at least replace ourselves merely speeds up the possible extinction of atheism..... The bodies are fewer....& anyway , books are easier to burn !! Check out the concept in evolution called the RED QUEEN effect. ....see Dawkins. All 4 now

Permalink Reply by Brian Ditter on February 19, 2010 at 8:27pm

I cannot fully respond to your reply at this moment, but a few observations are in order; [unedited / rough draft: refer to earlier post for telephone # ....call for more complete discussion, point by point]
1st of all, nowhere in my 2 posts did I claim or assert that'' the best way to beat them is to out -procreate them''....you need to be more careful & not be so quick to read into posts things which are NOT stated...... I was referring to the catholic church's opposition to birth control...... I was also alluding to the application of game theory [ex; ''the prisoner's dilemma''... sometimes rational solutions can be counterintuitive; & often seemingly ''simple strategms can have ironic or drastic consequences; referenced here by some of the roots of the population problem.]...in understanding the competition dilemma.......the point I made stands: " we " are at risk as a pool of memes of being driven to extinction [& genes : inquisition; ... holocast for the Jews]....because that is precisely the objective of all religious fundamentalists of major persuasion. for reference here see"" Kingdom Coming - the rise of Christian Nationalism '' by Michelle Goldberg. This is part of what I was alluding to when I wrote about being self-absorbed & narcissistic & being concerned about only one's immediate happiness [like business decisions being made primarily about short term profits] & essentially living with one's head in the sand.
2nd: I am well aware of the dangers of overpopulation...but you are preaching to the choir here. The is a lot of mythology & simplistic thinking on this topic, as well. I refer you to ''the Blind Watchmaker'' by Rchard Dawkins, for starters. The entire human race could be effectively lead to extinction in as little as 40 years. If a person chooses to remove themselves from the gene [& meme] pool its their choice I'm not objecting ... [but then; why drag it out & wait for old age to accomplish that? mass suicide would certainly have an immediate inpact on the population problem, wouldn't it ??? Think of how HEROIC that would be!!! ]
,...But to imply that any atheist / bright /religiously skeptical couple that passes on their genes is just this side of evil [anti 'heroic''] is ,at best, misguided [referring to post I was responding to originally, not yours]
Nor did I anywheremake any statement asserting my being more ''honorable'' , so for you to claim that is what I "think" is out of your imagination...so that is more accurately "funny" ---your word.
Again, You have nothing to disagree with ...As nowhere did I state that the ''Best way to beat the religious procreators is to out procreate them.''
YOU have it totally backwards.....& you need to ask yourself how YOU made that error
MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT: that IS precisely the strategy of the fundamentalists !!!You assert that we ''NEED '' to ''shut down the religions".....OK lets accept that provisionally. The REAL issue then is HOW ??? Gas chambers? Guillotine? [lets save this for Wall street bankers] Forced sterilizations? Lets have YOUR REALISTIC solution.By the way, Evolution is a fact & so is competition & differential procreation success [ OR failure ] it is NOT a ''lie'' as you assert., & it also operates with memes [My earlier concept of ''psychological genes ~ 1970-1, prior to Dawkins] "memes" is short & sweet [kudos, Dawkins]
A small point: the mere existence of a child does NOT make him/her a sure victim of religious indoctrination .so that argument falls flat. also = More ''meat" for "rational psychoepistemology'' education & training [see Nathanial Brandon here]
So , are we all going to become Vikings ??? Are you starting a new movement ? Mass rape [''procreation''] of religious women as a ''SHOULD" / spoils of 'war'?....That's your solution ???? [behaving as Vikings] How HEROIC you assert. Come to the next American Atheist convention in April & look me up life member #28.. to continue this discussion. All 4 now .... I really do hate typing this is only my 3rd posting ever.

Permalink Reply by TNT666 on February 20, 2010 at 12:42am

Shutting down religion. change definitions. put all religions in the legal definition of organised crime. Take away their charitable status, confiscate their buildings, remove them from all levels of schooling. ORGANISED CRIME. they are nothing less.

Empty the coffers of all churches, close their bank accounts, that will shut down Rome for one.

Place economic blocades on all countries encouraging state religions (hey we did it against commies, why not against churches)

Refuse to vote for any person religious

"OUT" all closet religious people and denounce their religious affections in their decision making process.

AN INTELLECTUAL AND FISCAL AND POLITICAL WAR AGAINST ALL THINGS RELIGIOUS.

Yes, that is the very beginning of what I'd like to see. :)

Permalink Reply by Brian Ditter on February 20, 2010 at 4:24am

How do you plan to do this in a democracy ???????...AS a dictator??? You first have to take over the country; don't forget; your religious opposition is Not going to roll over. " seeing' /imagining it is one thing [interesting novel, perhaps]
HOW are you going to 'cause' this to happen in the real world; by force ????
Give us some specifics. A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step.....we're waitng for your plan.....convince uswhy it will be successful. the floor is yours.

Permalink Reply by TNT666 on February 20, 2010 at 2:09pm

IMO our democracy is a joke, is not even the "majority rule" today it's the "most money" that rules. I have zero faith in modern representational electoral democracy. NONE.

My first step, in real life, is I remove any religious advertising I see posted anywhere.

Laughing and ridiculing religious words spoken in my entourage.

Next, Removing charity status from churches. They are NOT doing charity work, they are preying on the poor and destitute to gain members.

Permalink Reply by Brian Ditter on February 20, 2010 at 11:54pm

dear TNT:
Hey !!! I actually agree with you here about our democracy being a joke/ etc.....however , even given that that is true, you have NOT answered the question/ issue of how you will obtain the power to accomplish by force/dictaitorial edict, the steps you mentioned in the posting I responded to. It will NOT be accomplished by wishful thinking or making demands/complaints.
Note that there are basically two types of people in the world: those who believe that: '' the end justifies the means
[in accomplishing some 'desired' goal ''] ; and those who don't,
[as a general principle].
This is the primary moral/ethical divide with REAL WORLD consequences. Millions of people have been murdered by those holding to the first belief.
Note that this question is independent to the inherent RIGHT to self defense [or with respect to Dawkins-- the 'right' of our genes for 'self defense'
[digressing to follow this line for the moment: we have the 'right' [under constitutional protection] to the PURSUIT of happiness...
[to modernize the issue: the right to pursue ''self actualization''] There is NO ''entitlement'' that somehow it will be 'given' to you !!
[ as many misguided narcissistic self absorbed types mistakenly believe/ demand] .....
From the gene's perspective its pursuit of happiness / self actualization would be in the attempt to reunite with a complementary set of 23 other genes and to continue to exist !! [Procreation for multi -trillion cell lifeforms funneled thru a mere handful of gametes in the case of mammals]
Again the 'right' is in the pursuit, NOT in the actual achievement of that goal.[which of course is the achievement of fertilization]
There is no 'right' that that goal is in reality achieved.
Nor can you fault the gene's imperative for continued existence, any more than you can fault every human's desire to remain alive.

Can humans adopt unhealthy/counterproductive/warped 'values' ?? Certainly. Note that the achievement of one's values always leads to pleasure, irregardless of how warped or irrational those values might be One's essence is basically the values & ideals you hold & pursue regardless of how they became programmed into your brain...which for most people is by indoctrination/ uncritical ''osmosis'' from significant others, as they are growing. [memes programmed into ''wetware'']
Hence CHOOSE CAREFULLY THE VALUES & IDEALS YOU WISH TO PURSUE !!! One is NOT born with wisdom.. Critical rational thought And a dedication to the facts of reality are a necessity in this endeavor ....weed out the bullshit others have inplanted. This is the duty ALL humans have to themselves...And no one else can do it for you. You are only a ''product of your environment'' / victim to the extent that you DEFAULT on the responsibility of self evaluation and examination...As Socretes stated: (FIRST) KNOW ONE'S SELF !!! ....factually/honestly.

It's nice to see that you have found some things you can do as part of the ''journey of 500 miles'' (<-- 1 million steps/, a half million paces) in the fight against irrationality. !!!
One of my accomplishments here is that my local library has learned to value my 'opinions' on books I argue they should have...& I have gotten them to purchase scores of them over the last few years. When a new one comes out, I obtain it via the inter-library loan system, & after critically evaluating it, I give them my recommendation. I also inform just about anyone I meet who has an open mind [and some not quite so open, yet] of the existence of these books & challenge them to read them, including students.... this goes back to my original observation is that the most productive education results from 'inquiring minds' being exposed to the works of well- reasoned authors, dead or alive.....all 4 now.

Permalink Reply by Howard Titman on June 16, 2011 at 9:32am

agreed on all points!!! well said...

Permalink Reply by Brian Ditter on February 19, 2010 at 9:37pm

Footnote: The few ''opinions'' I gave in my post were primarily to mirror opinions stated in the posting I had responded to. Most of my statements were not ''opinions'' but either facts or conclusions argued from those facts.. there are different senses of the word 'opinion' & it is a rhetorical maneuver to mix them in a discussion. I certainly would go to a medical doctor for a medical 'opinion' / recommendation & not a plumber [ for his/her 'opinion' on the same question].
Facts & opinions are not the same thing.....instead of addressing my arguments point by point, you choose to label it as ''the most incredible 'opinion' you've ever read in an atheist group''......and its not even one that was made/stated. Says more about you than anything about my points/conclusions.......... See you at atheist convention ???
Not wanting to accept facts about reality is a prime example of what I referred to when I wrote about having one's head buried somewhere dark [like under the sand]That is exactly the behavior one finds in the 'religious' bible/koran/torah/jesus freaks... not wanting to accept facts about reality.
[Granted, evidence is often misinterpreted & not all asserted scientific 'opinions' / claims stand further scrutiny; hence it is important to keep up with the latest findings/ evidence......I will be the first to agree that there is a lot of very poor 'science' out there ]

Permalink Reply by TNT666 on February 20, 2010 at 1:05am

You obviously consider yourself to be a "Hero" ...You have nothing to be proud of or smug or self-rightous about here. [It's obviously all about you & your 'happiness' right ?]

THAT is the opinion I was referring to, if you want to get rhetorical and deny THAT's your opinion then fine, don't call it an opinion, call it what you like... Sorry if my response to your post didn't state that clearly. Remember, when writing, the last paragraph always is what persists most in the reader's mind.

Permalink Reply by Brian Ditter on February 20, 2010 at 4:09am

Sorry I didn't make the context clear to this comment/ opinion... I have another post which addresses some of the related issues.... To make an anology , most people understand the concept of unbridled greed, & do not mislabel it as mere self-interest. By the same token, most people recognise that excessive self indulgent, narcissistic behavior of humans that are highly self absorbed [& generally delusional about authentic self esteem & the validity of their opinions] is not really the equivalent of what is generally known as: the pursuit of happiness..
The first statement follows directly from statements made in the post . Hence the comments of different people's ''happiness'' completely miss the point/ are irrelevant as regards my point.....is why I placed...'happiness' is quotes to begin with.
[read carefully]
I did NOT speak ONLY of biological children when I spoke or raising ''them''... that is precisely why I stated : ...having/raising 'them'......
Lastly , there is a misguided attack on ALL child bearing including responsible/rationally guided atheists .....insinuating that they are just this side of 'evil' -the opposite of ''heroic'' , Which I vehemently object to....but that would take several pages to defend. A static population at ANY level reguires an avg couple to bear 2.x+ children.
Reading rational discourse as if it were a novel [remembering basically the last paragraph] is also misguided. thoughts need to be digested one at a time, and perhaps reread over & over to help insure they are not misunderstood; which is precisely why I never bothered to respond to blogs in the past. I much prefer DIALOG; which is why I included my phone # in my 1st reply.
"...if I want to get 'rhetorical' (?) Now that was humorous, even ludicrous . Again: NOT all 'opinions are equal in validity, to begin with [see other posts] I cannot always defend on the spot at length my statements [obviously] but I can assure you that 99% of the time I will NOT give any ''opinion'' that I am not prepared to defend at length, and NOT by the use of rhetorical chicanery.
I may give recommendations, such as the following: one shoukld read up on texts such as ''Speaking to Inform And Persuade'' in order to be able to spot when your 'opponent' is attempting to substitute rhetorical manevers/ strategms in place of a well-reasoned rational argument.['conning' you]
It is the writer's poorly [or otherwise] 'reasoned'arguments, misunderstandings, and lack of knowledge which tends to stick out in my mind., And not [perhaps] the only valid point ''stategically placed in the last paragraph... as a rhetorical maneuver [hoping thereby that the reader forgets the main body of poorly reasoned[at best] B.S.

Permalink Reply by B-Girl on May 20, 2012 at 11:45pm

Ugh.  The Duggars - they have a TV show "19 Kids and Counting".  Did the math once on how many generations it would take for them to get to over 1 million Duggars from the couple on the show if each kid also had 19 kids and it frightened me.  Really amusing (yet sad) thing is that with each son a woman gives birth to, it increases the chance that the next son born will be gay (something about the mother's body treating the male fetus as a parasite), so it is very likely that a couple of the younger boys will be gay (amusing because the parents aren't going to have exactly what they want; sad because the gay son(s) will be disowned and may be very unhappy because I am sure they are being taught that being gay is bad).

Permalink Reply by Brendan Prettie on February 18, 2010 at 1:05am

Hey, just adding my name to the list of guys who don't feel the need. 27 years old this April

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