Atheists for the Gaza

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Atheists for the Gaza

This community is dedicated to spread awareness on the grave injustice the Israeli state has enacted on its occupied people. We stand in solidarity with the Gazans who war has deprived of every decent livelihood and every ounce of normalcy.

Members: 39
Latest Activity: Sep 7, 2014


Discussion Forum

Zionism, Nationalism and real politics motives.

Started by Geraldo Cienmarcos Apr 25, 2012. 0 Replies

The Worst Thing for Gaza

Started by Al-KADIM. Last reply by Against All Fanatics Sep 14, 2010. 7 Replies

End Demolitions Now

Started by Nate. Last reply by Against All Fanatics Sep 13, 2010. 1 Reply

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Comment by Rob Welch on September 4, 2010 at 9:41pm
I think you're the one who's got it backwards. Far from allowing Israel to claim the moral high ground, the international left is among Israel's most vocal critics. It's preposterous to claim that Israel bears no moral responsibility for its actions as long as Hamas and Hizbullah are in power. Palestinian uprisings have come and gone. Wars with Hizbullah have come and gone. Hamas power has come and gone. Israeli settlement expansion, Israeli ethnic cleaning in E. Jerusalem and apartheid conditions throughout Israel and the occupied territories have been a constant since 1948. Israel bears responsibility for its own actions. America bears responsibility for enabling and excusing Israeli aggression and racist policies. If Israel were to stop all settlements, recognize the human rights of non-jews living within Israel and the occupied territories and provide equal protection and opportunity under the law for all residents of Israel and the occupied territories then popular support for Hamas and Hizbullah would wane. Israeli rhetoric and political spin notwithstanding, it's the Palestinians, NOT the Israelis, who lack a peace partner.
Comment by Simon JM on September 4, 2010 at 9:07pm
AAF that's interesting spin since Israel has been getting away with things for years before Hamas even got into power. Regardless the main reason , Israel gets away with this is that the US and the West lets them because of geopolitics and US internal politics, and Arab political self interest. Hamas and the 'War' on 'Terrorism' is just like the 'War' on Drugs, a pretext for certian elites to enrich themselves and for politicians to get or stay in power.
Comment by Against All Fanatics on September 4, 2010 at 8:42pm
Rob & Simon -- I am afraid you guys have got it backwards. It is because of groups like Hamas that Israel gets away with what it does. The Israel right exploits the situation to the max. They are very good at it. And by ignoring Hamas, Hezbullah, and other terrorists, the international left allows Israel to continue claiming the high moral ground and be credible about it. If you want to stop and reverse settlements, if you want a Palestinian state, if you want Palestinian rights, you have to start by demanding that cancers such as Hamas be removed so that the majority of peaceful Palestinians be allowed to express themselves freely.
Comment by Simon JM on September 4, 2010 at 5:34pm
I would simply say Hamas is a sympton and Zionist Israel is the cause. If a kid turns up and shoots up their local highschool no one is going to condone that; and even if it turns out it came about from prolonged bullying that still doesn't excuse it, but it does say who is ultimately responsible for what caused it.
Comment by Rob Welch on September 4, 2010 at 4:52pm
I don't know why you say Hamas gets off with little criticism; most of the rest of the world regards it as a terrorist organization and the US refuses to deal with it; how much more criticism do you want? So what if my knowledge of what's banned is dated? For a long time toys and musical instruments were banned from Gaza by Israel. What purpose other than to dehumanize the population of Gaza could that possibly serve? As for Israel's actions being more ethical than Hamas, exactly how ethical is using white phosphorous on unarmed civilians? How ethical is demolishing Palestinian homes in E. Jerusalem? How ethical is erecting walls so that Palestinian farmers can no longer work their land? We're really getting down to pots & kettles calling each other black. I think one of the reasons Israel gets, and deserves, so much criticism is that it is constantly claiming the moral high ground. The official propaganda is that they "withdrew" from Gaza, but they retained control of all imports and exports, denied Gazans all but subsistence-level supplies, prevented them from rebuilding and refused to let anyone leave. Claiming that they withdrew is utter BS. The Israelis are constantly whining about the threat of terrorism from Palestinian militants yet they do nothing to check the Jewish settlers who're constantly terrorizing Palestinian residents of the West Bank. Israel likes to claim that it's a Western-style democracy but there's more to democracy than elections. Western-style democracy also requires protection of minority rights, individual rights and religious freedom. Even the Arab citizens of Israel live in apartheid-style conditions. They can't get building permits and the neighborhoods in which they live are often denied basic municipal services such as running water and electricity. Also, what many people in America don't understand is that right-wing religious nutjobs are becoming more and more powerful within Israel. The political factions that want a strict interpretation and imposition of Jewish biblical laws are ascendant, and in many cases these laws are just about as odious as sharia law. So these are my reasons for criticizing Israel - they like to claim that they're a Western-style democracy like the US when in reality they are becoming more and more a racist apartheid theocracy. Israel shares none of our values, and it makes me sick to here people like Netanyahu and Avigdor Lieberman claim otherwise.
Comment by Against All Fanatics on September 4, 2010 at 4:26pm
Rob -- I agree with some of your point about Israel, but the fact that the U.S. does not subsidize Hamas does not mean that we (I am actually Canadian) should not criticize them. There is widespread criticism of Israel from many quarters (much of it warranted but much of it not so) while Hamas is essentially a criminal organization that is getting off with little criticism. This is counter-productive because it gives no Israel to Israel to improve their ways. They feel that no matter what they do, even though their actions are much more ethical than Hamas' actions, they get more criticism than Hamas anyway.

By the way, both Canada and the U.S. indirectly subsidize Hamas because we help Gaza residents through the U.N. and other means, and much of it ends up in the hands of Hamas.

On another point, your knowledge on what is banned in the Gaza blockade is dated.

With regard to the West Bank, I strongly oppose settlements, but did you ask Palestinians whether they'd rather live under IDF control or under Hamas control?

I could go on and on, but basically, this is a complex issue, and criticizing Israel and Israel alone is naive and simplistic.
Comment by Rob Welch on September 3, 2010 at 10:15pm
Look, no one is claiming that Hamas is a bunch of saints. It's pretty clear that the Hamas leadership has decided that it's better to rule in hell than serve in heaven, and they'd rather be the top dogs in an open-air prison camp (Gaza) than average citizens in a democratic Palestinian state. There's no doubt that they'll do just about everything in their power to thwart whatever progress is made in this latest iteration of peace talks. The reason I am actively critical of Israel's current (and past) policies and administrations while remaining relatively silent about Hamas is that my government provides Israel with state-of-the-art weaponry, gobs and gobs of financial aid and, perhaps worst of all, moral and political cover in the UN by vetoing any security council resolution that is at all critical of Israel. By any reasonable definition of 'apartheid' Israel is a racist, apartheid state. Israel controls 60% of the West Bank and seems to go out of its way to make life miserable for the Palestinian residents therein. Palestinian residents of Gaza are prevented from leaving, cannot export anything and have their imports severely restricted (what can the point be of banning musical instruments if not to deny Gazans a simple pleasure enjoyed by all of humanity?). The Israelis like to claim that they want peace but lack a peace partner but seriously, do you really think there's anything that the Palestinians could concede or agree to that would stop the Israelis from demolishing homes in E. Jerusalem, or expanding settlements in the West Bank, or making life as miserable as possible for Gazans? Israel is at least as bad as apartheid South Africa, and my problem with the current Israeli administration is not that they're worse than Hamas (they're not), but that my country, America, which should stand up for the freedom and equality of all peoples, has sold its soul to the Israelis and lacks the political will even to threaten to cut off financial and military aid until Israel agrees to a full settlement freeze.
Comment by Against All Fanatics on September 3, 2010 at 3:58pm
Hamas attacks and kills Palestinians because they sing songs during a wedding -- Hamas in the view of a Palestinian:

Comment by Against All Fanatics on September 3, 2010 at 3:53pm
As usual, Hamas threatens peace:

Comment by Against All Fanatics on September 3, 2010 at 3:48pm
The description of this group naively says "This community is dedicated to spread awareness on the grave injustice the Israeli state has enacted on its occupied people". What about the injustices perpetrated by terrorist groups such as Hamas against both Palestinians and Israelis? I support the residents of Gaza, but I do not support this naive approach to helping them. What all Palestinians need is peace, and what Hamas gives them is an endless war.
 

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