Comment

Comment by Al-KADIM on September 13, 2010 at 6:05am

Well, I thought this was a group about Gaza, not Nablus (there are vast differences between the two), but we can go there if you like.

Actually, it is more the case in the West Bank and Jerusalem than it is in Gaza. Most settlements were built on state land, but instead of Egypt occupying it, it was de facto occupied by Jordan (though this was only recognized by two countries, the UK and Pakistan). Other settlements were built on purchased land.

One difference, however, particularly in Jerusalem, is that land that was previously under Jewish ownership was taken back. This is especially true of the Jewish Quarter and several other properties in the Old City, which was seized. Other areas where this is true is the Ezion Bloc of settlements southwest of Jerusalem and especially Hebron. Beit Hadassah, for example, the first Jewish property seized in downtown Hebron, was a Jewish hospital until it was evacuated in 1929 after the First Arab Uprising and stood abandoned until 1967. Beit Romano, on the other hand, around the corner, was converted into an Islamic girl's school, which was evacuated. The Hebron Central Bus Station, however, also on Jewish registered land, was kept operational until at least the mid-1980s, when it was seized by the military following a terror attack--nevertheless, it was not transferred to the settlers. Furthermore, Jews were denied access to certain Jewish properties there because of security concerns and, frankly, because most of the Israeli government didn't want them there. The thing is, any seizure of Arab land had to face the Supreme Court, which was not sympathetic to the settlers' cause. The same is true of a small number of properties in Nablus. Ancient claims have been routinely rejected by the court, including claims to the ancient (Byzantine) synagogue in Jericho. The real problem of ownership in the West Bank is not the land on which the settlements were built, but rather the land on which roads leading to the settlements were built.

Mind you that there are, however, conflicting claims. For example, state land is based on what is registered in the Tabu, even though it is not occupied, while local villages have laid claim to the surrounding lands. In some cases, villages have lost over half of their lands in that way.

As for Right of Return, that is the right of return to Israel within the pre-'67 borders and has nothing to do with the West Bank. On the other hand, there have been families returning to the West Bank from the Palestinian diaspora, but not many, largely the families of Fatah leaders. Oddly enough, there is some animosity between the returning families, which constitute a leadership elite, and the local families, which stayed put during the occupation and waged the struggle. Then again, many of the returning families are more educated and Westernized. Tensions ensue.

Once again, though, I think we should focus on Gaza, which has very specific problems. Working quietly, Fayyad has managed to get back land in the West Bank and begin to develop the necessary infrastructures for statehood (ironically, he says that he is using the "Zionist model"). He is rooting out corruption and building schools, factories, and social and communal institutions. Gaza, which has its own parliament now, is different. Under Haniyeh, it is creating a social structure built on charitable hand-outs controlled by Hamas, i.e., if you don't support Hamas, you don't eat. the end result is an untenable situation, which will only lead to more violence (see http://www.atheistnexus.org/group/atheistsforthegaza/forum/topics/t... for instance). The real problem is infrastructure, not boundaries.

Comment by Simon JM on September 13, 2010 at 3:14am

Valid points about ownership in Gaza. I do think though that while this largely is the case in Gaza it isn't the case either in the WB or Jerusalem.

Yes justice conerns are more widespread than just private property, but like the right of return it they aren't addressed there will never be peace.

Comment by Al-KADIM on September 12, 2010 at 9:14pm

Once again, the issue isn't ownership of land. The issue is creating a solid economic base for the Palestinian people of Gaza to create a viable and independent state that is not dependent on Israel or Egypt. Anything else would be creating a Bantustan, where Palestinians are forced to work outside their national boundaries, but have none of the rights of citizens where they work--in simple terms, they work for minimum wage in Israel or Egypt, but do not get health care benefits (which are universal for citizens of both countries).

If, however, you do want to talk about land ownership, let's examine Gaza as a test case. There are two possibilities here: 1. land is state owned; or 2. land is privately owned (that allows for two sub-possibilities, which I will look at later).

Israeli settlements in Gaza, which were all dismantled, occupied ~30 percent of the land, mostly beach properties near Khan Yunis-Deir el-Balah. They were built on state-owned land, i.e., the land wasn't registered in the Tabu (the term for the land registration system in the Middle East since Ottoman times). At present, the land is owned by the PA, or rather the Gaza branch of the PA (Palestinian Authority), headed by Haniyeh. The question is, who owned it before that? Was it the Ottomans? Sorry, they were gone since 1917. The British? Gone since 1948. A Palestinian state was supposed to be established then to include Gaza, but instead, Egypt held the territory under military occupation from 1948 to 1967 (with a brief interval from 1956 to 1957 when Israel occupied it). That left Israeli military and later civilian administration. Should they have built the settlements? Absolutely not. But until the withdrawal, who actually controlled that land? There was no Palestinian authority of any kind. Soon after the PA was established the land was returned to them and the settlements were dismantled.

Then there is private ownership. Some bits of Palestinian land were privately owned. In most cases, this land that was later occupied by Israelis was first purchased. Should Israelis have purchased that land? Absolutely not. Should a law have been passed forbidding Palestinians from selling their land to Israelis? Only if you want to violate the basic principle of private land ownership.

There is also a third category, but fortunately that is negligible. You see, there was a small Jewish community in Gaza City until the Second Arab Revolt of 1936, when they were forced to evacuate for their own safety. There was also a single agricultural settlement on purchased land (Kfar Darom) which was forced to evacuate in 1948. These lands appear in the Tabu as Jewish lands. Should their owners have the right to demand their land? (Fortunately, Amira Hess only rents in Gaza).

So we've covered land ownership. You may have even learned a new word--Tabu. Now it's your turn. Let's say Israel lifts its blockade on Gaza entirely--something that I have actively worked to see happen. Let's say all of Gaza is under the control of the freely elected democratic PA, whether Haniyeh or reunited with the West Bank under Abbas (you know of course that Gaza has its own Parliament now). Then what? How do you ensure that it becomes self-sufficient? After all, if it isn't self-sufficient, it would be subject to economic post-colonization, most likely under Israel.

Comment by Simon JM on September 12, 2010 at 7:35pm

What is frustrating to me here is that you seem so worried about where to draw neat little lines on maps that you forget about the real problems of economics, sustainability, and genuine independence.


Do you own any land Al-Kadim? One could safely say that regardless of the which lines in the sand we have plenty owned land in there own right.

How about if you do own land I take the majority of it and I don't want you complaining if I decide to take more just accept it and get on with life. BTW I get to choose to travel through some of the rest of your property plus unfortunately I'll have to bar you from it for safety reasons. & decide who comes and goes from your property.

Impossible to negotiate over which lines to use when the side just continues to take land

Comment by Al-KADIM on September 12, 2010 at 5:30pm

Actually, no. They were never officially recognized as the country's boundaries. They were armistice lines. Unfortunately, you don't know enough history of the region. But really, let's see you tackle the economics of a Palestinian state as in my discussion above. THe purpose of the previous post was simply to point out that you don't understand what those boundaries are, where those boundaries are, or why those boundaries are? Let's put it this way--would you include al-Auja or Himma in a Palestinian state to be?

Comment by Al-KADIM on September 12, 2010 at 3:43pm

What is frustrating to me here is that you seem so worried about where to draw neat little lines on maps that you forget about the real problems of economics, sustainability, and genuine independence. Without dealing with those genuine issues as I outlined in my recent discussion above, all that you are doing is promoting the creation of a Bantustan for Palestinians.

Comment by Al-KADIM on September 12, 2010 at 3:38pm

I'm really curious as to what you consider "legal borders." The legal boundaries of Mandate Palestine as determined by the French and British (Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1916), minus Transjordan, which was separated in 1922? The northern border becomes tenuous however, considering that Tel Hai and Metulla were given to the French in 1919, only to be returned to the British in 1921.

Or perhaps you mean the 1947 UN Partition Plan (not the earlier plans, such as Whitehead, which would have left the south in Arab hands). However, that lumps Bethlehem in with Jerusalem as a single unit, which would vote after ten years on whose sovereignty it preferred.

Do you mean the Armistice Lines of 1948, which went unrecognized and were seen as temporary until a final peace agreement was reached? Of course, that would keep the predominantly Palestinian towns of Umm al-Fahm, Nazareth, and Shfaram under Israeli control, and does nothing for the 200,000 or so Bedouin in the area surrounding Rahat and Laqia.

Now let's talk about divided cities. No, I don't mean Jerusalem. I mean Rafah, which is divided between Gaza and Egypt. largely the result of bickering between the Ottomans and Britain. I am assuming you reject the 1841 Khan Yunis-Suez Line, since that brought the border too close to the southern edge of the Suez Canal, and was deemed a threat to colonial interests in the region. Do you honestly prefer the 1906 Rafah-Taba line, which protected British colonial interests? Do you know anything about historical development of the current borders?

Comment by Against All Fanatics on September 12, 2010 at 8:11am

Simon -- Your comment about TNT666 is funny. What do you think comments like yours do to the Palestinian cause? When reasonable people see such hateful comments, they shrug their shoulders and think "these people are nuts" then they move on to other matters. Talk about being a straw man.

Comment by Against All Fanatics on September 12, 2010 at 7:55am

Some members of this group would be more comfortable if the group was called Atheists Against Jews or Atheists for Hamas.

Promoting the state of Israel is not my ulterior motive. Promoting the states of Israel and Palestine is my openly declared motive. Small minds cannot conceive of promoting both.

Comment by Simon JM on September 12, 2010 at 3:37am

Funny thing is TNT666 it is such a obvious straw man that one can only wonder at his bias. None of us here support Hamas nor condone any war crimes they commit, but unlike him we can tell the difference between a cause and a symptom, for even if Hamas disappeared and the Palestinians present their necks for Israeli boots, the war crimes and occupation would not end.

Reminds me of the relatives of men who commit rape, who then attack/blame the rape victims family, they just don't know how sick they are!

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