Atheists for the Gaza

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Atheists for the Gaza

This community is dedicated to spread awareness on the grave injustice the Israeli state has enacted on its occupied people. We stand in solidarity with the Gazans who war has deprived of every decent livelihood and every ounce of normalcy.

Members: 41
Latest Activity: May 17


Discussion Forum

Lost cities of Palestine

Started by Napoleon Bonaparte May 15. 0 Replies

The Lab

Started by Napoleon Bonaparte May 8. 0 Replies

15 years of age in Gaza

Started by Napoleon Bonaparte Feb 10. 0 Replies

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Comment by Geraldo Cienmarcos on September 15, 2010 at 3:14pm
"Against all Fanatics" said:

"I for one am convinced that it is possible if the extremists on both sides are marginalized, which is why the main targets of my criticisms are Hamas and the Jewish settlers. "

I think one way to marginalize the fanatics is to identify the most secular, pro peace AND economic development movements in Palestine and the West Bank, as well as Israel and strongly support the secularists.
-- Gary
Comment by Geraldo Cienmarcos on September 15, 2010 at 3:08pm
Dear "Against all Fanatics",

"The only way to prevent an attack by Israel on Iran's nuclear facilities (and all the potential repercussions) is to ensure that Iran does come close to building nuclear weapons. "

Is this what you intended to type or did you leave out the negative "does NOT come close".

If what you intended is "Iran does come close" what is your thinking on that? Deterrence?

There use to be a dark joke here in the US in the peace movement.
"If the US really knew that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, the US would NOT have attacked."

peace,
Gary
Comment by Al-KADIM on September 15, 2010 at 12:14pm
In a related story, this film just screened at the Toronto Film Festival this week and got some rave reviews. I am pleased, as I translated the Hebrew and Arabic for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JerFtui9gPU&feature=related

You can read about it here: http://www.variety.com/review/VE1117943311.html?categoryId=31&cs=1

here: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/film-reviews/precious-life-film...

and here: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/movies/2010/09/telluride-2010-preci...

It will be on HBO some time in 2011.
Comment by Against All Fanatics on September 15, 2010 at 7:47am
On the question of Iran's nuclear capacity, I don't think that pressure by Bush either way would have changed anything. Israel will strike Iran's nuclear facilities if and only if it feels that it has no choice. Anyone with any brains knows that Israel has nothing to gain from a confrontation with Iran. Israel isn't exactly going to create settlements there, and such an attack will likely create additional hostility with European powers, Muslim states, and even the U.S. government.

The only way to prevent an attack by Israel on Iran's nuclear facilities (and all the potential repercussions) is to ensure that Iran does come close to building nuclear weapons.
Comment by Against All Fanatics on September 15, 2010 at 7:38am
One state would of course be the ideal solution, not only for Israel and Palestine but ultimately for the whole world. As an atheist, I don't care about religion, and race doesn't mater to me either. But let's be realistic. In today's world, this would be disastrous. In the example of Israel and Palestine, in today's climate, neither the Jews nor the Muslims would be satisfied by a one-state solution, and a civil war would likely follow resulting in yet one more partition and another 60 years of struggle. Like it or not, a two-state solution is the only practical option today. The question is how to ensure that the separation of the two states is fair and stable. I for one am convinced that it is possible if the extremists on both sides are marginalized, which is why the main targets of my criticisms are Hamas and the Jewish settlers.
Comment by Al-KADIM on September 14, 2010 at 10:58pm
It depends on if they are pressured by outside forces to do so. If Bush was in office, I can see Cheney pressuring Israel to bomb Iran. Right now, I don't think they would do that. They certainly would not do it on their own.

As for killing Iranian nuclear scientists more surgically, that is a different story.

As for Iraq and Turkey over water, that is one of the reasons Israel and Turkey were so close until the current Islamist govt took over in Turkey.
Comment by Simon JM on September 14, 2010 at 9:36pm
I agree on Egypt with all the overpopulation, poverty and political corruption it is ripe to fall.

& water in the region is going to be a killer. I wouldn't be surprised if Iraq and Turkey go at it over this one.

Do you think Israel is foolish enough to bomb Iran?
Comment by Al-KADIM on September 14, 2010 at 9:25pm
Unfortunately, I agree with most of what you are saying here. I'd just add a couple of things.

1. Peak water will play as important a role as peak oil, particularly in that region.
2. There will be a power shift with more secular Arab states looking for help from Israel and eventually forming coalitions with it to combat fundamentalism. This is already happening in the West Bank and Jordan, and to some degree in other states in the region. Surprisingly, I think it will happen with Syria too (the Alawis are scared). Egypt is the lynch pin there, and the most worth watching.
3. I agree that America will be unable to help Israel like it has in the past. On the other hand, as a stable regime it will be a prize as an ally once peak oil hits. In other words, if the Chinese or Indians want to keep an eye on the region, they are better off doing it from Israel than from Saudi Arabia, which will eventually fall to fundamentalism.
4. I continue to think Gaza is the most severe problem because of the demographics, density, etc. Frankly, everyone in the region, including WB Palestinians and Egypt, think it is a powder keg, regardless of who is in charge there.
Comment by Simon JM on September 14, 2010 at 8:57pm
Gaza would be one problem among many in a one state solution, and not in itself any more intractable than the other problems.

The problem is the US because of internal politics cannot be an honest broker and with internal Israeli politics being what they are we are still a long way off where all sides are forced to try to be fair in negotiations. I like a quote by Livy that speaks about not being able to live with the problems they have, but also not being able to bare the solutions as well. My feeling is that things will go on the way they have been until Peak Oil, Climate Change or the final Global Financial Crisis hit.

The US will go bankrupt and will have enough on its hands to worry about what is going on in Israel, so effectively they will be on their own. I expect surrounding states to turn into Islamic extremist failed states and for Israel to end up facing guerrilla warfare on all its borders and internally as well. Nukes are useless in these circumstances.

BTW if they bomb Iran this will come about that much quicker.

IMO time will run out before any solution could have been applied and things will sort themselves out on the ground. Iraq on steroids.
Comment by Al-KADIM on September 14, 2010 at 7:40pm
@Simon. For the record, I am not opposed to a one-state solution. In fact, I think it is the preferred solution for the region, and I have advocated for it both here and in various other publications, media, etc. I do, however, think that there are major issues that have to be resolved first. The key one is economic disparity. You cannot have a viable one state solution where Jews are a wealthy class and Palestinians are a laboring class. That is potentially more dangerous than the current situation and it would certainly serve the Palestinians poorly.

In practical terms, think of the repercussions: 1.5 million Gazans working as day laborers in construction and 1.5 million Tel Avivis working in high tech and finance. That's not a democracy. That's neo-feudalism.

Now let's take your second question regarding demographic shifts into the equation. If Jews become the minority, as you assume (I question it for various reasons), then you have a situation where a minority controls all the wealth and a minority is kept as working class. That's even worse.

Like I said, I support a single state solution, but before simply embarking on it, let's put together a viable working model? Do you propose cantonization, as in Switzerland? Again, given the economic disparities, that simply creates Bantustans. Do you want a Belgian model? That's not working too well either. A Czechoslovakian model? I'm showing my age.

By all means a one-state solution, but work out the details first. And note that the state Bisharat is talking about excludes Gaza. So I repeat my earlier question. What is the solution for Gaza?
 

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